A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#481

Post by galvin » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #453

Joeri wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a job is so unpleasant that people will only do it to avoid abject poverty and its miseries then something is wrong with that job. Probably that window manufacturing job could have been much more pleasant given the right process changes, but the factory owner was not incentivized to try because they could find someone willing / forced to accept that job as it was. In essence, basic income does away with wage slave…

I'll be honest: even if you gave me unlimited money to fix it, I wouldn't want to work there. It was already about as robotic as it could get and yes, there were definitely a few things that could have made it less bad, but I don't think that job could be good. Also, I'm not so deluded to think that it was the worst job in the world, either. I mean, in that world, who collects trash? There are a lot of necessary jobs…

Basic income would only cover essentials such as shelter and food. While some people would choose to work because they enjoy their jobs, many would work to be able to buy a nice car, dishwasher, TV and other non-essentials. Unpleasant jobs might be the only choice for some people, particularly for unskilled workers.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#482

Post by Cadsby » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #419

frogpelt wrote: post #362

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

> America will be about the last place to attempt this

We came much closer than anyone seems to remember under Nixon in the 70's.

http://www.remappingdebate.org/article/guaranteed-income%E2%...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#483

Post by JupiterMoon » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

moonchrome wrote: post #461

JupiterMoon wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NO basic income is a flat amount paid to everyone regardless of their income. What you are talking about is called means tested in work benefits in my country. It is bad - for all the reasons you mentioned but it is not basic income. Criticise basic income if you want (please do so if you are trained economist) but please do understand what it is before doing so otherwise you are merely burning a strawman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax >Negative income taxes can implement a basic income or supplement a guaranteed minimum income system. IIRC it was proposed as a simplification of the means tested welfare. Basically NIT is the most realistic funding for Basic Income I've seen - but it's irrelevant - the incentives stay the same the only difference is that it screws over regular people a little less (d…

Sighs. You really don't get it do you.

Basic income (NB not minimum income!, not negative income tax!) is not means tested at all. No means test period. Everyone gets it. From the beggar to the millionaire. This is a totally different concept to means tested benefits. The proposal is a so called universal benefit.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#484

Post by jbuzbee » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #419

frogpelt wrote: post #362

The basic income concept is intriguing to me (because it simplifies things) but I do not think it will work for this reason: Who administers the basic income? The government and by extension politicians. Once they have every single person who breathes on the dole, this will give them unbelievable leverage against the people. If the government is giving everyone a check, how hard is it to argue that the check should b…

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

"America will be about the last place to attempt this"

In a small sense, the US is already doing it. 60 minutes did a story on an area in Kentucky and West Virginia where they estimated 10-15% of the population, 250 thousand people, are on social security disability. Local lawyers guaranteed, and the Social Security Administration agreed, that they could get anybody classified as "disabled" to get benefits.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/disability-usa/

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#485

Post by rconti » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:58 PM UTC

CONTRARlAN wrote: post #420

rconti wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

> I don't know, but it's a fascinating experiment, anyone who is not paying for it should be in favor of this experiment -- unless you just hate poor people. What a bizarre statement. It's really easy to read that as two things: 1. You're totally game to experiment, just so long as it's not your money. 2. Anyone who doesn't agree must hate poor people. I'm pretty certain you didn't really mean either, but the net res…

I don't see the problem with this reading.

1. It's POSSIBLE to be unhappy about this, IF it is your money being used, and you have certain criticisms.

but

2. If it's not your money, I can't see how anyone could possibly have an issue with the experiment.

Which part do you disagree with? I'm not saying that anyone whose money is involved here HAS to be upset about it. I'm just saying, if they have skin in the game, they at least may have REASON to quibble. And if they don't, I don't see what complaint a person could possibly have with research (that, incidentally, benefits people).

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#486

Post by rconti » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 10:00 PM UTC

jbuzbee wrote: post #484

rconti wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

"America will be about the last place to attempt this" In a small sense, the US is already doing it. 60 minutes did a story on an area in Kentucky and West Virginia where they estimated 10-15% of the population, 250 thousand people, are on social security disability. Local lawyers guaranteed, and the Social Security Administration agreed, that they could get anybody classified as "disabled" to get benefits. http://ww…

Yup, I'm well aware of how the disability system is being used. But we all know increasing social services has been pretty much a toxic idea since at least the early 90s.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#487

Post by jotm » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 10:02 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #135

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

"If a government were to do that for everyone it seems pretty obvious that society will be better off - people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford their rent." Looking at populations of people who have gone from being very poor to being very rich overnight does not support that statement. Most of the time the money is more of a curse than anythin…

Looking at populations of people who have gone from being very poor to being very rich overnight does not support that statement. Most of the time the money is more of a curse than anything else. I believe the same goes for people who go from very poor to receiving an annuity from things like legal settlements, but I am only guessing at that

That's a bad comparison, there have been studies that show a small no-strings-attached monthly allowance made people's lives easier and overall better. They did not spend the money on crap like most lottery winners do.

I assume the reason is that those people realize they're still poor, but got a bit of help. Lottery winners get more money than they can handle, start assuming they're rich and that messes up their spending habits.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#488

Post by rconti » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 10:03 PM UTC

nothrowaway wrote: post #425

rconti wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America will be about the last place to attempt this, if the past (and our current welfare) are any guide. It's an interesting concept. My immediate reaction is that it creates disincentives to work. In theory it does, but the only data we have is those who are currently on welfare and do not work -- but maybe those people were basically not going to work anyway! We have no competing group of people who are on welfar…

"America will be about the last place to attempt this..." I'm not sure how relevant this is, but I believe it's related to the topic of basic income, and hopefully it's at least slightly interesting! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund (Coincidentally, I only heard about it last weekend, at what you could describe as an "alternative economics" conference.)

Yeah, the APF was mentioned in the Medium article, and I'm familiar with it as I have family both who live in Alaska, and who have worked in the oil industry. Also, I've been to deadhorse myself, but I'm not sure that qualifies me for anything other than glancing at the pipeline now and again for hours and hours and hours on the Dalton.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#489

Post by rconti » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 10:04 PM UTC

eplanit wrote: post #464

CONTRARlAN wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know, but it's a fascinating experiment, anyone who is not paying for it should be in favor of this experiment -- unless you just hate poor people. What a bizarre statement. It's really easy to read that as two things: 1. You're totally game to experiment, just so long as it's not your money. 2. Anyone who doesn't agree must hate poor people. I'm pretty certain you didn't really mean either, but the net res…

That's the common tactic of argument these days. The notion of "criticism" has been re-cast as "hate". Hate is more easily dismissed, ridiculed, and trivialized.

After re-reading your parent's statement a few times, I think (s)he thought I was saying you must dislike it if you're paying for it, but if you're not paying for it, you can't dislike it.

I merely was saying I can't see a valid criticism for those of us who aren't paying for it. There may be some valid criticisms of the idea, but I'd rather see how this goes.

I can't think of a single (valid) reason to oppose basic research on solving poverty, when that research has no negative impact on the person who might be opposing it. Can you? The only one I can think of is "I want to ensure poor people are kept poor."

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#490

Post by uhwhat » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 10:06 PM UTC

clavalle wrote: post #301

uhwhat wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine partitioning living NEEDS [housing, food, transportation] as an area of the economy with its own money/token/basic-income-credits system separate from the WANT economy of everything else.

I've thought about this, too but I can't figure out how you'd prevent those tokens from being bartered for more traditional currency outside of the necessary conversion by landlords and grocers and other providers. With ubiquitous computing now available to everyone we might be able to fully track that sub set of transactions with 'currency with state and history' as opposed to traditional 'dumb dollars' but I think…

Food stamps are a decent example. It's not perfect yes, but it basically becomes undesirable to trade the cash of the WANT economy for the goods of the NEEDs economy.