A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#341

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #229

rorykoehler wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For basic goods there would be more demand (people who can't afford even basics would enter the market making the total market larger) in turn making it more attractive to compete there. People always go where there is opportunity. We are also on a long term trend of prices coming down in any case.

So you say demand will increase and production will have to catch up. I think prices will go up, not down in such case.

Depends on how elastic the demand for the good is. Not everything can handle a large price hike like that. McDonald's, for instance, wouldn't be able to jack up their prices a whole lot, because then people simply wouldn't go there.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#342

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:10 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #135

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

"If a government were to do that for everyone it seems pretty obvious that society will be better off - people will spend their time working on things to improve everyone's life rather than worrying about how to afford their rent." Looking at populations of people who have gone from being very poor to being very rich overnight does not support that statement. Most of the time the money is more of a curse than anythin…

But we're not going from very poor to very rich. We're going from very poor to not that poor.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#343

Post by _greim_ » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

noarchy wrote: post #338

Who are the groups driving all of the mentions of basic income/mincome on social media? Or is it a coincidence that we're seeing more and more discussion of the topic on places like reddit and HN? I'm genuinely curious to know how organic this topic is, versus whether or not there is a concerted effort to "get the word out".

My guess is that much of it comes from technologists and futurologists, who are over-represented online, and way over-represented on Reddit and HN. Perhaps we've even filter-bubbled ourselves a little bit here.

In any case, the relationship between technologists/futurologists and basic income advocacy would be that basic income is the solution to an ever-shrinking labor market as automation gets better. Sort of an exit strategy from the current economic regime.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#344

Post by droopyEyelids » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:14 PM UTC

noarchy wrote: post #338

Who are the groups driving all of the mentions of basic income/mincome on social media? Or is it a coincidence that we're seeing more and more discussion of the topic on places like reddit and HN? I'm genuinely curious to know how organic this topic is, versus whether or not there is a concerted effort to "get the word out".

It's an organic effort to get the word out. The idea really got a hold of me in 2008 and I've been a proponent ever since.

It does a great job of both stimulating my imagination and being a fun topic of conversation.

For history's sake, I first came upon mention of it on this website, while searching for 'the art of conversation' which was a phrase that i randomly googled.

http://www.basicincome.com/bp/artofconv.htm http://www.basicincome.com/

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#345

Post by nekopa » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:18 PM UTC

anticon wrote: post #222

just_had_tea wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...in which we learn the real reason you're against UBI—dirty immigrants. I really fail to see how this can be anything other than an argument for more fair/equal wealth distribution in the world. If most countries had similar schemes, then why would the "good for nothing immigrants" go to supposedly scrounge in the US?

If we redistributed wealth around the world, everyone would be poor, unable to start companies, etc etc. Does that really solve anything useful? You do realise that if you redistributed wealth over the world, you would be drastically worse off don't you...

If all the world wealth was distributed to everyone on the planet, we'd all get about $51,000.

I'd be drastically better off.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#346

Post by ancap » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

I'm all for this (and any other form of welfare), provided the funding of such a program is done on a purely voluntary basis.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#347

Post by mcv » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:21 PM UTC

brobinson wrote: post #327

mcv wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to get rid of the myth that everybody needs to work. Better would be to automate all the work so nobody has to work anymore.

Who owns the machines in that system? The government?

I don't care who owns them, as long as the value they produce is at least partially shared.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#348

Post by budu3 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:22 PM UTC

Fuxy wrote: post #70

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

I would wager there will be people who will take advantage of the system and use it as a opportunity to not work and laze around all day however those people will be the one who are not particularly productive in their work anyway. They might find something else to do they might not but that's OK it is an acceptable loss. On the other end companies which used to take advantage of the job market and the fact that ever…

How will you deal with inflation? Wouldn't the sudden influx of many cause the price for basic goods, rent etc to go up?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#349

Post by shostack » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:24 PM UTC

ancap wrote: post #346

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

I'm all for this (and any other form of welfare), provided the funding of such a program is done on a purely voluntary basis.

If the net result is lower cost than funding existing forms of welfare and ends up improving other areas of the city, would you care as much about the voluntary nature of it?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#350

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 6:24 PM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

"People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things."

Most of them are also extremely lucky in that they either don't need things like healthcare, or don't have families.

"This is about stealing money from the successful"

No, it's not. Those people would not have been successful in the first place if not for the advantages and benefits they had growing up in a first world country.