Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome • Hacker News Board

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#71

Post by fsloth » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:27 PM UTC

vilhelm_s wrote: post #56

fsloth wrote: post #41

Great photos. Does anyone have details why soviets thought a carbon copy of the botched shuttle design was a good idea in the first place? Where the economics of the vehicle not so obvious back then?

According to the book "Energiya-Buran, the Soviet Space Shuttle" by Bart Hendrickx and Bert Vis, they correctly noted that the stated reasons for the US space shuttle did not make any sense, so they assumed there must be some secret rational reason for building it: > As TsNIIMash [Central Scientific Research Institute of Machine Building] director Yuriy Mozzhorin later said: "[The Space Shuttle] was introduced as a n…

Great summary :) - without the internet the F-35 design would probably be evaluated in similar vein - makes no sense so there must be some hidden purpose.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#72

Post by fsloth » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:33 PM UTC

dandrews wrote: post #70

fsloth wrote: post #41

Great photos. Does anyone have details why soviets thought a carbon copy of the botched shuttle design was a good idea in the first place? Where the economics of the vehicle not so obvious back then?

"Botched shuttle design"? You don't know much about the orbiter, I take it. Shuttle was meticulously - even lovingly - maintained, a hairy complex scrupulously documented piece of kit, well built and designed if not well conceived. I'll guess your crack is motivated by shuttle's mission , which was misguided (to say the least). Hampered by its LEO envelope, the Air Force should never have contemplated launching satel…

Botched in Design as in expression of intent since the intent was as you stated misguided. As I grow older I have a harder time separating technological merits from economic ones.

As a piece of hardware... yeah, that's a different thing entirely.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#73

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:38 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #25

Osmium wrote: post #11

I think being able to walk away from a project like this is actually quite commendable, in a way. Not that it's always the right call, but to be able to avoid the 'sunk cost fallacy'[1] on this scale is something that large governments/companies seem rarely capable of. That said, in this case, maybe they just didn't have a choice and ran out of money... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

> I think being able to walk away from a project like this is actually quite commendable, in a way. Oddly enough, this is much easier to do without a democracy. It was not what happened there (it was the Soviet Union's collapse that did it) but the reasoning stands.

Well they did keep their Soyuz and other space programs. I think even the wasteful Socialist bureaucrats realized this is not a project worth pursuing.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#74

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:40 PM UTC

Fun fact: Buran was the first fully automated space shuttle. It did a complete flight cycle without human intervention. I believe our space shuttle could that that too eventually but not at the time.

Even funner fact: There is a remnant of software that powered that shuttle still around. In the form of a visual programming language DRAKON (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON)

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#75

Post by kweks » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:44 PM UTC

Paul_S wrote: post #29

jpatokal wrote: post #18

On reading up, "finding" isn't quite accurate, as the locations of these two shuttles were perfectly well known. They're OK-1K2 and OK-4M on Wikipedia's list below, located in MZK building 80, area 112a, Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_programme#Buran-class_sp... However, obviously sneaking in to take pictures is not an everyday occurrence, it's still a Russian military base and p…

I'm sure it's not impossible to come to an arrangement with the locals to go and have a look at the shuttles.

Well, you can pay to go on Baikonour tours. 10k around launch times, cheaper when its not a launch time.

I'm sure if you're got that type of cash to drop - dropping a few more k to see the Buran isn't an issue

Or you can sneak in. It's in the middle of nowhere.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#76

Post by outworlder » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:53 PM UTC

sizzzzlerz wrote: post #51

Its interesting to see how these shuttles mirror the US ones on the outside due to Soviet spies getting pictures and plans but the interior, especially the cockpit, is all Russian, sparse and uncomfortable. I guess they didn't get intel on that.

Or perhaps because the interiors don't matter much, as long as they do what's required by the mission.

The exterior, however, has aerodynamics constraints. Being a shuttle, you also have to account for reentry effects. Presumably the US had way better computing technology and simulation capabilities that were very expensive.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#77

Post by outworlder » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 2:54 PM UTC

Crito wrote: post #17

This is actually much better than I expected. I thought all Burans were thought destroyed, with the last being that one that a building fell onto. It seems that one was the one that actually made a test flight, but there are other incomplete or test vehicles surviving: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_programme#Fleet_status_a...

That's what I thought too. They belong in a museum.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#78

Post by ehosca » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 3:08 PM UTC

this is heartbreaking :(

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#79

Post by drzaiusapelord » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 3:09 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #74

Fun fact: Buran was the first fully automated space shuttle. It did a complete flight cycle without human intervention. I believe our space shuttle could that that too eventually but not at the time. Even funner fact: There is a remnant of software that powered that shuttle still around. In the form of a visual programming language DRAKON ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAKON )

The STS was purposely designed not to do that due to political reasons, pilots didnt want to feel like they were passangers, emergency restrictions, etc. Eventually those restrictions were lifted and was fully autonomous at a certain point, I don't remember which models have the full autonomy suite, but the capabilities varied as these things were built out.

Considering the Buran has never put a person into space, its still fair to call it an experimental and a failed project. The STS was doing all these things and more. Its an interesting bit of Soviet trivia, but all the attention it gets on the internet is fairly amusing for whats essentially the poster-boy in mismanaging a spacecraft project and what essentially became a Soviet "make work" jobs program, as the higher-ups knew early on that this thing would never be put into production due to a variety of factors including cost and technical issues.

I find it interesting that these things haven't been turned into scrap yet. There's something to be said about how overly prideful and nostalgic Russians are about the USSR. I think Putin put one of the Burans indoors after it was discovered to be sitting out amongst the elements. Most governments would just recycle failed capital projects. Unless they're bringing this thing back, it seems weird to have it sitting around in various corners of their launch complex.

Re: Photos from inside the Baikonur Cosmodrome

#80

Post by seany » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 3:11 PM UTC

jpatokal wrote: post #18

On reading up, "finding" isn't quite accurate, as the locations of these two shuttles were perfectly well known. They're OK-1K2 and OK-4M on Wikipedia's list below, located in MZK building 80, area 112a, Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_programme#Buran-class_sp... However, obviously sneaking in to take pictures is not an everyday occurrence, it's still a Russian military base and p…

The whole facility (and the shuttles actually) are owned by Kazakhstan as far as I'm aware. Ownership of it was "transferred" during the breakup in the 1990s. That being said large portions of the active section of the base are actually `run` by russians.