A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#161

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:50 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #83

dagw wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work. For many people that project is to watch their favorite TV shows while eating their favorite ice cream.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

Exactly this. After 8h+ of work for little pay, 2h of commute, doing dishes, dinner and cleaning up, you'll have little energy to do anything creative and constructive. Grabbing a beer and turning on TV is a way to relax before turning in and beginning another day of work. I don't know of a person who doesn't have dreams, hobbies, things to do and create. Many just put it off until they can buy a house, until they can have children, until they can give children education, until they retire...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#162

Post by dtech » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:51 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #87

mkingston wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the state will take more than it gives from the billionaire. This is actually more bureaucratically efficient than manually means testing every possible recipient.

How would they take more from the billionaire? Means test them? What if they're asset rich, cash poor... or if they have no income? The whole idea is unworkable. It's like it's been dreamed up by a 5 year old.

> How would they take more from the billionaire?

We have this obscure system that has been around for a few thousand years to do this. It's called "taxes".

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#163

Post by FHorse » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:51 AM UTC

Having lived under a communist regime and also in the ghettos of NYC decades ago, I can tell you just how idiotic this is. But I guess there's no shortage of idiotic ideas when you are playing with other people's money.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#164

Post by mrottenkolber » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:52 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

Unless you cite any scientific sources I am going to be blunt here: You are dead wrong. About every point you try to make. Its exactly the other way around. Give people minimum wage with no perspective and they will learn to love the TV. Give people opportunities to be creative and they will flourish.

Be under no illusion: the reason why our culture is so fucked up and our common psyche is so damaged is the capitalist system, that robs humankind of its humanity by stripping humankind of its dignity. We are not cheap resources. We have rights.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#165

Post by noreasonw » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:54 AM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #141

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

We already provide public schooling to develop basic skills. But, many adults aren't capable of being productive, regardless of motivation. And even absolutely low-skill jobs are being automated out, like McDonalds cashiers being replaced by machines. Not everyone is smart enough to be productive in a competitive society. The basic income is going to prevent larger potential problems with them, like crime or health c…

perhaps public schooling is more about you learning to pass some tests than to enhance your abilities. Many very intelligent people are so bored in school that they don't learn anything there. With basic income school should change to train teachers about coaching people and less about tests. I think there is a lot to do besides basic income, I am not against UBI but there are side effects that we need to address the sooner the better about it.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#166

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:54 AM UTC

merijnv wrote: post #89

anticon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

Who says it has to be a company? How about that guy that wants make music but doesn't have the time to practice due to work. The girl that wants to paint, but is to tired after work. Why does everything have to be about companies and money? Can't you really imagine any useful social, artistic, or other things these "dumb, lazy" people might want to invest their time into? How about just being a stay at home parent an…

How about science or engineering? Imagine how it would be if scientists actually had time to read papers in their field, perform experiments and pursue some research goals, instead of cranking paper after paper in order to stay employed?

What about all those social projects that people want to do, but don't have time to really support?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#167

Post by rhizome31 » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:54 AM UTC

mierek4ever wrote: post #137

tormeh wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know one single person like that. Wanting this is very rare and is a symptom of mental illness. Most people want to be proud of something. Granted, MacDonald's will have problems finding workers, but is that so bad? Living in Norway it is perfectly possible to slack off on the taxpayers' bill if you want to, but society doesn't collapse. People would rather avoid the low status associated with living on the dole th…

Norway is extremely different than for example US. With all due respect, I'm sorry, I can't see Norwegians happily supporting social programs if they are mostly designed to help immigrants. US is immigration based. What about Norway consisting in 15-20% of Blacks, than the other 80% coming from all over the world. I believe that about 75% of all Americans are immigrants, their children, or their grandchildren. Would…

I don't think the point was saying that Norway is better than the US. The point was saying that in Norway, it's already possible to live with tax payers money, but most people choose to work. So based on the assumption that US people are as good as Norwegians, most US people would still choose to work even if they didn't have to.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#168

Post by MDCore » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:55 AM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #153

MDCore wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state Do you have any evidence for the existence of these lazy people, and in any significant number? The literature and actual experiments done with basic income shows that people are not lazy, but rather they lack opportunities, or a safety net for small risks, or any of a number of other things.

Thanks for asking for real data about this. I was only giving my very humble opinion about what could happen, I would like to know some links to literature and actual experiments with basic income. I think that laziness is learned and you need to be kicked strongly to move in a doers direction. In a weak economy with no expectations for people to progress laziness and hopeless bloom, if basic income is a step in the…

Here are two articles that gave me insight: http://mondediplo.com/2013/05/04income and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINCOME

Basically, people who were working out of desperation worked less, otherwise people used the money to ensure food safety, invest in businesses or improving their lives.

I really don't think "lazy" is a valuable label. It tends to be applied when there are underlying causes for the supposed "laziness". When those causes are repaired the laziness tends to go away. For example: illness, precarity, hopelessness (as you mentioned), a lack of opportunities. I'd suggest doing away with the overly simplistic "lazy" and using more accurate words which express the underlying causes.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#169

Post by fwn » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:55 AM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #136

anticon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

Wrong. The majority isn't lazy, the majority is rebelling , in a passive-aggressive way. Faced with a job that they easily recognize as worthless economic make-work, they do as little of it as they must. Faced with having their mental energy drained down to nearly nothing, they prefer no-effort recreational activities like TV. Basic income will unleash a temporary plague of laziness, as people snatch back control of…

Isn't that the atlas shrugged plot, just mirrored?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#170

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:56 AM UTC

wubwubwub wrote: post #84

anticon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

Why does everything have to be an extreme at each end of the spectrum? Either starting companies or doing nothing? I'd like to believe, possibly naively, that for a lot of people there would be a middle ground. Spending their time on personal growth, creative pursuits, general fitness and well being. In essence, living well. Just because you're not attempting to start the next social media, it doesn't automatically m…

There are also a lot of things that can and need to be done for others (as opposed to personal growth, general fitness, etc.) that don't make sense as companies, or that are perverted beyond recognition when exposed to market pressures. Starting a company is one of many ways of doing things useful to the public, but not the only one.