A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#141

Post by mozumder » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:31 AM UTC

noreasonw wrote: post #115

The problem I see with any basic income scheme is that lazy people can get in the trap to become trapped in a lazy for ever state. Basic income should be accompanied with a policy to motivate people to develop their capabilities and enhance their self confidence. Once you are trapped in the basic income scheme and automation replaces all the low skilled jobs, lazy people can see themselves as completely disposable ob…

We already provide public schooling to develop basic skills. But, many adults aren't capable of being productive, regardless of motivation. And even absolutely low-skill jobs are being automated out, like McDonalds cashiers being replaced by machines.

Not everyone is smart enough to be productive in a competitive society.

The basic income is going to prevent larger potential problems with them, like crime or health costs or decreasing property values or other social expenses, beyond their immediate income expense.

These people already cost you money. The basic income is the option where you pay them little now so you don't have to pay a lot for them later.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#142

Post by nshepperd » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:33 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

> Communism (Which is what this is), has failed. Why this generation seems determined to try it again is beyond me.

Isn't communism about central economic planning? Basic income is explicitly capitalist. No-one decides who ought to do what. We just distribute money, and let the market determine what to fund with it.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#143

Post by mierek4ever » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:34 AM UTC

mierek4ever wrote: post #127

onion2k wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. That isn't their personal project. That's all they have the choice of doing. Most people do those things because they're tired after working hard all day for a wage that doesn't give them enough money to do anything but sit in front of the television. If people had the opportunity to work a bit less in their job so they could do something worthwhile and fulfilling in their spare time, most people would t…

Only at 115 - 120 IQ points one starts to be interested in "looking for information on their own". Not to mention things like building stuff on their own. 115-120 IQ is top 10% population. Maybe 20%. You are definitely over estimating general population. It is easy to do so of meeting only the smartest 20% when at university, work, family. I dare you ask McDonald's cashier next time what they want to do in life, or a…

I love downvotes without explanation. You know I'm right, so you don't discuss. I certainly take a lot of satisfaction from this.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#144

Post by moonchrome » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:34 AM UTC

JupiterMoon wrote: post #72

moonchrome wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income has a diminishing return, once you're out of "minimum income" the ammount requred to take the shit job is not linear. You can either lowball the minimum income to the point where you can't realistically live on it for long or a lot of services get more expensive + tax hike to support it = lower standard of living for normal people (unaffected by minimum income but not rich enouh to ignore the costs)

The idea of basic income is to take people out of starvation and lack of shelter. It would still leave people wanting to earn in order to e.g. go on holiday, own a computer, go to a bar, go to a restaurant, eat nice food, own a car (in Europe where owning a car is not required at least) etc - i.e. still plenty of incentive to work, earn and save just more freedom to take risks by e.g. starting that business... You al…

I doubt people are starving in developed countries so I wouldnt say it's taking anyone out of starvation, it's an alternative to existing welfare in that regard.

And when we get to "basic shelter" well coupled with free health care I guarantee you there are people out there who have very little ambition beyond that, I know more than a few from highschool that literally said things like "all i need is enough money to play WoW" or just work enough to earn money for weed and go out with their friends and live with their parents (and these are people in late 20s early 30s).

People with ambition aren't the ones that benefit from minimum income (unless they get really unlucky, which I guess is a valid concern, but then again those same people are not the ones doing the bottom tier jobs, at least not for long).

Also that's not how I saw basic income schemes suggested, usually it's paid out to people below min income and then progressively lowered to some point otherwise the taxes would have to be insane to finance it.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#145

Post by eddd » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:34 AM UTC

Collect taxes at high stakes -> Give money away for free -> Expect from people to be happier. Why governments just decrease some tax rates and let people to choose what to do with their own money?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#146

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:34 AM UTC

PinguTS wrote: post #88

Basic income is a nice theory, but completely ignores the financing part. The money has to come from somewhere. I would be really fine with receiving a basic income. From the social side I would support it. People can do what they like, like artists, developers, and creative people. May be there will be the next business opportunity, startup from that work. Yes, may be other people are lazy, that is like today. There…

It could be self funded, most advanced economies have a progressive tax system, if they switched to a flat tax system and moved the lost tax benefit to basic income it would be mostly cost neutral.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#147

Post by bitJericho » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:35 AM UTC

Fuxy wrote: post #98

anticon wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

> Communism (Which is what this is), has failed. Why this generation seems determined to try it again is beyond me. A bit of a stretch there and i should know i was born in a communist country. The reason Communism has failed is because of the lack of checks and balances on power compounded with corruption not because of concepts like this. > This is about stealing money from the successful, and giving it to everyone…

No doubt. Had companies in general not taken advantage of employees nobody would even be considering this option. This is what you get when companies look at the bare minimum they can pay somebody for the work they want.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#148

Post by calanya » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:36 AM UTC

eddd wrote: post #145

Collect taxes at high stakes -> Give money away for free -> Expect from people to be happier. Why governments just decrease some tax rates and let people to choose what to do with their own money?

Err, to help people who don't have any money?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#149

Post by tormeh » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:36 AM UTC

jkarneges wrote: post #12

jlarocco wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there is that you have a cushy programming job. The bigger question is what about the gas station clerks? Or cleaning people? Or wait staff? Or any of the people working the millions of other jobs that just totally suck. Having done it in the past, I'm 100% sure nobody wakes up totally stoked to go bus tables or wash dishes. So, maybe people who have awesome jobs will just keep doing what they're doing, b…

If nobody is required to do the "shitty jobs", I wonder if those jobs would increase in value as less people do them? Maybe having a waiter at a restaurant would become a luxury. Perhaps all the jobs would continue to exist but there'd be some very interesting rebalancing.

Just go to a country with really high labor costs. This is exactly what you'll see. Lots of work goes undone because people just don't care enough to pay for it. Usually just cosmetic or convenience stuff.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#150

Post by fwn » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:37 AM UTC

eddd wrote: post #145

Collect taxes at high stakes -> Give money away for free -> Expect from people to be happier. Why governments just decrease some tax rates and let people to choose what to do with their own money?

Redistribution is not a zero-sum game. With every redistributional loop, politics get influence they can convert in votes, power, etc.

..and this is not cynism, just regular public choice.