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A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

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Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#21

Post by reycharles »

vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

> All else equal, hiring a poor worker is probably perferable to hiring a wealthy one, as the poor worker has more incentives to work really hard.

Or conversely, they might just have more incentive to do what it takes to get paid rather than doing a good job. I think work ethics is a better incentive.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#22

Post by mtsr »

vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

Actually, money worries are some of the worst things your employees can have. An employee without them is happier and more productive. So I would definitely hire the one with the minimum income.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#23

Post by fragsworth »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #18
vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

>somebody to really needs that job. That somebody would not "really need that job" because they would be guaranteed a basic income no matter what in a real world scenario.

I think you misinterpreted things. Re-read the original comment

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#24

Post by rktjmp »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #18
vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

>somebody to really needs that job. That somebody would not "really need that job" because they would be guaranteed a basic income no matter what in a real world scenario.

Yeah, but their point is its not really a real world scenario.

Since the other person, who's not taking part in the study, wont receive a basic income, the person in the study might feel morally required to give up their job potential job to the person who really needs it, which means the results of the study will be inconclusive.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#25

Post by gommm »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #18
vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

>somebody to really needs that job. That somebody would not "really need that job" because they would be guaranteed a basic income no matter what in a real world scenario.

No, what vog means I think is that if A receives basic income competes with someone B who doesn't receive basic income (because only 250 people gets it in that test), then the moral thing to do from A's point of view is to voluntarily lose to B since B needs it more than he does.

So having a small sample set in a big city invalidates part of the experience since the situation is very different from what would really happen if everyone had a guaranteed minimal income.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#26

Post by tremon »

GigabyteCoin wrote: post #18
vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

>somebody to really needs that job. That somebody would not "really need that job" because they would be guaranteed a basic income no matter what in a real world scenario.

There are other reasons to "really need a job" though. Self-realization, fulfillment, social coherence come to mind. Or are those factors of happiness reserved only for the 1%?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#27

Post by mtsr »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #11
mtsr wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. If every euro you earn there adds to your unconditional minimum income, instead of replacing a euro from welfare, the motivation to work for that new car, or whatever, becomes pretty tangible. Note that €900 (or €1300 for a family) is pretty barebones. You won't be putting much more than bread and potatoes on the table using that. And you'll probably live in a rather small house too.

Yeah but at the same time, it would allow people to be more picky about where they work. "I need money so I'll take any job" is a different mindset than "I am financially independent and I'm looking to make more monies in a job I like"

The I'll-take-any-job crowd might not be very motivated in their work anyway. At worst this will force us to pay better salaries for ALL jobs that have fewer applicants, instead of only the ones that require a higher education or lots of experience. Seems fair to me.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#28

Post by davedx »

vog wrote: post #16

Can this really work when applied just partially? This experiment is about ~250 people with basic income in a large city. (The text mentions 300 people, but some of them form a control group that doesn't receive basic income.) So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job. Even without that moral issue, this makes still sense f…

> So if any of these selected people will try to find a job, they will probably voluntarily "lose" it to somebody to really needs that job.

[citation needed]

> All else equal, hiring a poor worker is probably perferable to hiring a wealthy one, as the poor worker has more incentives to work really hard.

[citation needed]

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#29

Post by belorn »

jlarocco wrote: post #6
ryan-allen wrote: post #2

I wonder how much you'd need to save and to own in order to conduct this experiment on yourself? I've wondered about what I would do day to day if I didn't 'have to work to live'. I honestly think I'd be doing very similar things. I'd still be programming, and I'd be wanting to make things that'd help people do their jobs better, but I wouldn't feel like I 'had to'. That alone would improve my sanity immensely (I thi…

The problem there is that you have a cushy programming job. The bigger question is what about the gas station clerks? Or cleaning people? Or wait staff? Or any of the people working the millions of other jobs that just totally suck. Having done it in the past, I'm 100% sure nobody wakes up totally stoked to go bus tables or wash dishes. So, maybe people who have awesome jobs will just keep doing what they're doing, b…

If you are 20-something living on minimal income that barely covers food and a roof, would you take a job working as a gas station clerk in order to afford to go out and eat and socialize, buy a drink in a bar, or participate in the culture of everyone else around you?

If you asked a anthropologist, I suspect you would hear a pattern of human beings doing all kind of work in order to increase their status in society and finding a mate. Working in a low status work is not perfect but it is better than nothing and money is quite useful when it can be used on things beyond a 1-room apartment and basic food.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#30

Post by mtsr »

tremon wrote: post #26
GigabyteCoin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>somebody to really needs that job. That somebody would not "really need that job" because they would be guaranteed a basic income no matter what in a real world scenario.

There are other reasons to "really need a job" though. Self-realization, fulfillment, social coherence come to mind. Or are those factors of happiness reserved only for the 1%?

Yeah, seems like as good a time as any to pull out Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs.
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