Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#101

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:32 PM UTC

amirmc wrote: post #87

rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why his affiliation with Doctors Without Borders carries argument-ending weight here. They do noble work, but their interest is the well-being of people outside the U.S. The best case scenario for them is U.S. companies doing all the expensive R&D, and their patients outside the U.S. getting the resulting drugs for free. The USTR, in contrast, has the sole responsibility of maximizing the benefit to the U…

Your comment seems to conflate 'our', 'us' and 'we' with the drug companies themselves. There should be more to such negotiations than just whatever is in the (self)interest of US-based drug companies. That all this seems to be happening behind closed doors doesn't inspire confidence.

Within limits, the interests of the drug companies coincide with those who want new and better drugs to treat various illnesses. Those against the drug companies are on the side of those who want lower prices for existing drugs.

I want both, so I want a balance...

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#102

Post by shit_parade3 » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:34 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #77

phkahler wrote: post #59

"The Obama administration often describes TPP as the most progressive free-trade deal in history" Does anyone see stronger government enforced monopolies (patents) as the opposite of free trade?

All property is a government enforced monopoly. Without property there is no trade. There is no reason to transact when you can just take or copy.

Governments don't create property rights, nor do they enforce then very well, usually governments seize private property.

We civilized humans have come to terms with natural rights, that there "inalienable" rights granted by being a conscious free willed beings.

All the bootlicking DC apologists would be wise to reread some philosophy and develop a moral code beyond the barbaric might makes right.

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#103

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:36 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #86

zanny wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also does nothing to correct the apathetic public we have had for the past... sixty? Years. The incredible amount of gerrymandering done to rig the house of representatives is incredible, and the Senate is already inherently biased because its giving every voter in Wyoming 67 times the influence of a voter of California. Unsurprisingly, Wyoming has not elected a non-Republican senator in over fifty years. It shoul…

Apathy may be something that grows with time as well. It seems to me (though I don't have much evidence to back it up so I welcome being shown I'm wrong) that a lifespan of a functioning democracy is ~100 years. The people who shed blood for it care. Their children are taught to care as well. But the grand-grand-children, born into a working system, don't have any context of how it was before that would give them mot…

And for the US, one could plausibly start that 100 year clock in 1865, rather than in 1789. That would put the start of the apathy in 1965. Feels about right.

(Unless you're going to count it from 1945, in which case the real apathy hasn't started yet.)

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#104

Post by jonlucc » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:37 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #95

rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why his affiliation with Doctors Without Borders carries argument-ending weight here. They do noble work, but their interest is the well-being of people outside the U.S. The best case scenario for them is U.S. companies doing all the expensive R&D, and their patients outside the U.S. getting the resulting drugs for free. The USTR, in contrast, has the sole responsibility of maximizing the benefit to the U…

> is U.S. companies doing all the expensive R&D And they're certainly not struggling despite that; not sure why they need a treaty to 'protect' them. > It's in our interest if people outside the U.S. have to pay us a bunch of money to get the drugs we invent. Only if you think dollars are the only important thing. Plenty of people see welfare (including foreigners) as being a worthy thing in its own right.

If you think Big Pharma isn't struggling, you haven't payed close enough attention. There is a bit of a crisis in innovation that is commonly blamed on the low-hanging fruit being gone. To cope, almost all of the big US companies have cut their discovery and preclinical teams significantly. In their place companies are paying contract companies to do large chunks of the more monotonous chunks of research or buying assets that are already developed to clinical candidate from academia or small biotechs.

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#105

Post by icanhackit » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:43 PM UTC

themgt wrote: post #34

When the director of policy for Doctors Without Borders tells the public that "U.S. negotiators have basically functioned as drug lobbyists" and "We consider this the worst-ever agreement in terms of access to medicine", there's really little more that needs saying. I love that the best defense unnamed "U.S. officials" can offer is that "major compromises" will likely still be made. In other words: yes we're acting a…

U.S. negotiators have basically functioned as drug lobbyists

I made a similar comment a few days ago - what we need is a crowd-funded lobbying platform for everyday people. A kind of Kickstarter for law and policy.

If a few thousand or even tens of thousands of people chip in a few dollars to lobby for a change in policy, we can compete with corporations who have bought their way into power.

While we're complaining on the internet big business is using pocket change to get what they want. It needs to be as easy if not easier to pay a few bucks for your desired policy as it is to complain about it in an online forum.

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#106

Post by wirelesskarma » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

Taniwha wrote: post #97

rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why his affiliation with Doctors Without Borders carries argument-ending weight here. They do noble work, but their interest is the well-being of people outside the U.S. The best case scenario for them is U.S. companies doing all the expensive R&D, and their patients outside the U.S. getting the resulting drugs for free. The USTR, in contrast, has the sole responsibility of maximizing the benefit to the U…

I live in New Zealand - we've chosen to have socialised medicine - we buy drugs in bulk, for the whole country - it gives the national drug buying agency lots of market power - it doesn't force drug companies to sell to us under cost - but it does pick and choose hich drugs it buys with its limited budget - if they want our business they have to compete with other companies in front of a knowledgable experienced buye…

Same for us in Australia. Both Australia and New Zealand are getting the spiky end of the stick in regards to pharmaceuticals, we have a similar system of socialised medicine.

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#107

Post by thedaveoflife » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:45 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #56

thedaveoflife wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the best way to ensure access to medicine is by providing economic opportunities to the worlds most impoverished citizens. In other words, if the trade off is say a 10% increase in per capita GDP in exchange for less access to generics, maybe the former is better than the latter?

Those writing the TPP have no interest in passing any of the profits of these trade deals off to impoverished third world nations to enrich their societies. If you want a mutually beneficial trade agreement, you don't need secret meetings or a rush to get it through congress.

The reason it is kept secret is presumably because the general public has difficulty seeing the ancillary benefits (reduction of trade barriers) and pays close attention to the obvious drawbacks (IP rights for "evil" corporations). This contention is fairly well supported by a cursory read through this or any other internet thread about a trade agreement.

Whether the good in the TPP outweighs the bad is an open question that I don't have an answer to. I am just trying to provide some counter arguments to an otherwise one-sided discussion on here.

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#108

Post by wirelesskarma » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:49 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

hellbanner wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is their reasonable, good idea for the future, TeMPOral?

According to those conspiracy theorists I mention? Some things that they attribute to NWO and therefore want to fight against are: GMOs, vaccines, (moving away from fossil fuels to) nuclear energy, carbon tax, unified global government. Implementation may be tricky, but if you skip the accusations that They want to depopulate the world using above means, it seems like a bunch of pretty decent ideas for the future.

I agree, there are a lot of things that the hypothetical NWO does that I fully agree with.

I stand in full favour of GMOS, Nuclear Energy, Carbon Taxation/Trading, and also a global government (on the condition of it being a good one).

However, the extra political power being given to corporations and the reduction of citizen's capacity for political influence is something to stand firmly against. Of course I don't believe in a NWO in the traditional sense but the world is certainly largely run by a group of individuals in power.

The TPP makes me think of the Shadowrun timeline and the progression to extraterritoriality for corporations around the 2020s and 2030s.

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#109

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

pdeuchler wrote: post #89

rayiner wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why his affiliation with Doctors Without Borders carries argument-ending weight here. They do noble work, but their interest is the well-being of people outside the U.S. The best case scenario for them is U.S. companies doing all the expensive R&D, and their patients outside the U.S. getting the resulting drugs for free. The USTR, in contrast, has the sole responsibility of maximizing the benefit to the U…

Big fan of your comments usually, so it's disappointing to see such a specious argument. Not only is this a false dichotomy (free drugs vs getting paid fairly), it's dramatically removed from reality. Currently, without the TPP, the large pharmaceutical companies make billions in profit every year even including the rampant "piracy" in countries like India and China. Or, with the TPP, all of those generics go poof ,…

[deleted]

Re: Leaked: What's in TPP’s intellectual property chapter

#110

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 11:00 PM UTC

wirelesskarma wrote: post #108

TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to those conspiracy theorists I mention? Some things that they attribute to NWO and therefore want to fight against are: GMOs, vaccines, (moving away from fossil fuels to) nuclear energy, carbon tax, unified global government. Implementation may be tricky, but if you skip the accusations that They want to depopulate the world using above means, it seems like a bunch of pretty decent ideas for the future.

I agree, there are a lot of things that the hypothetical NWO does that I fully agree with. I stand in full favour of GMOS, Nuclear Energy, Carbon Taxation/Trading, and also a global government (on the condition of it being a good one). However, the extra political power being given to corporations and the reduction of citizen's capacity for political influence is something to stand firmly against. Of course I don't b…

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that I like the TPP. You're right about the power given to corporate entities being something to fight against.

> the world is certainly largely run by a group of individuals in power

This reminds me of an observation I once read - that there's no surprise those on top can look like they form a club even if they represent opposite spectrum on political scene; after all they studied at the same universities and probably know each other from the campus.

However, I'm not sure if the world is really shaped that much by conscious will of small group of individuals. As one blog puts it, "Almost No One is Evil. Almost Everything is Broken". It feels to me that a system of misaligned incentives is enough to explain most of the ways in which the world seems to evolve.

> The TPP makes me think of the Shadowrun timeline and the progression to extraterritoriality for corporations around the 2020s and 2030s.

Gotta check out Shadowrun, I haven't had a chance before :).

Speaking of works of fiction, the whole situation reminds me of Continuum series and the future of Corporate Congress.