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The Death Penalty in Louisiana

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Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#61

Post by tdees40 »

seivan wrote: post #29
Shivetya wrote: post #17

The death penalty isn't the problem and never has. There are far too many people who have no place in society and there is zero benefit to society to continue their existence. That being said, abuse by the legal system of those who cannot afford to defend themselves properly has gone on for far too long and its not just a Southern thing. From the bail bond market to the plea bargain junket of Federal Courts, justice…

Not a popular stance, but I agree with you. As a Swede I'd want the death penalty. Then again, currently Sweden (all of Scandinavia) is on the extreme but on the other side.

Yes, if only Sweden was more like Louisiana....

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#62

Post by philh »

pjc50 wrote: post #35
Shivetya wrote: post #17

The death penalty isn't the problem and never has. There are far too many people who have no place in society and there is zero benefit to society to continue their existence. That being said, abuse by the legal system of those who cannot afford to defend themselves properly has gone on for far too long and its not just a Southern thing. From the bail bond market to the plea bargain junket of Federal Courts, justice…

There are far too many people who have no place in society and there is zero benefit to society to continue their existence That's the sort of rhetoric that normally preceeds genocides.

If that rhetoric had never been used to justify a genocide, would you decide it was actually true?

If not, then the fact that it has, doesn't make it false.

(I make no judgment about the claim itself, just about the argumentation.)

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#63

Post by gadders »

tP5n wrote: post #28
gadders wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they wouldn't supply medication for assisted suicide either? Also, allowing people to opt out on supplying the drug on matters of conscience is a slippery slope. What about letting people opt-out of providing abortions? Or marrying gay couples? A case could made for people refusing to do these as matters of conscience as well.

No, it's not a slope. Gay marriage and the death penalty are two very different things and I can't believe I'm typing this out. There also numerous reasons to be against the death penalty but not abortions, but something tells me I'd rather not have this discussion here and now [1]. [1] for what it's worth, an example not related but relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770221

Of course the death penalty and gay marriage are not the same.

As I obviously need to spell it out to you:

- Some people's belief systems are against Gay Marriage

- Some people's belief systems are against the Death Penalty

Which set of personal beliefs is valid? Who decides which one should be allowed?

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#64

Post by tarpherder »

sageabilly wrote: post #13

"Cox does not believe that the death penalty works as a deterrent, but he says that it is justified as revenge." That is so, so fucked up. An attorney, someone whose job it is to impartially argue the law, equally to everyone, saying "Yeah you know, we kill people FOR REVENGE ." Not even, you know, hey if we have the death penalty it'll maybe make people think twice about committing a serious crime, but straight up s…

Whats better about using the "deterrent" excuse compared to the "revenge" truth? Why would it even deter a potential death-row criminal? How many future death-row criminals would have not committed atrocities because of that particular death? Whats the big deterrent about dying compared to the alternative: a life in horrible prison system where you may just die a more unpleasant death anyway?

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#65

Post by icebraining »

msandford wrote: post #45
DanBC wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem with sourcing is the manufacturers refusing to sell medications for use in execution. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/19/death-penalty-b...

It'd be nice if a bunch of other companies would be able to find their spines re: objectionable things the government does. Like spying on everyone all the time. You know, like teclos and the like. It's pretty crazy that drug companies are more ethical than telecoms. Especially considering all the problems with reproducability that we're seeing on the cancer treatment front and plummeting drug effectiveness.

Not sure about those ethics. If you read the article, the main supply restriction was imposed by the European Commission, following the UK government.

The US company that used to make them "suspended production because it was suffering commercially as a result of having its drug connected to executions," not exactly based on moral principles.

There's also the difference that telecoms have (if secret) court orders mandating them to do so, while drug companies only have a few sales to lose (even at the peak of 300+ executions/year, it's probably not a very lucrative business).

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#66

Post by Tomte »

sageabilly wrote: post #13

"Cox does not believe that the death penalty works as a deterrent, but he says that it is justified as revenge." That is so, so fucked up. An attorney, someone whose job it is to impartially argue the law, equally to everyone, saying "Yeah you know, we kill people FOR REVENGE ." Not even, you know, hey if we have the death penalty it'll maybe make people think twice about committing a serious crime, but straight up s…

Revenge is a generally recognized goal of criminal punishment.

One of several, and in civilized countries it is considered probably the least important, but it is still lurking out there.

And not in some disturbed mind's weblog. In serious legal literature.

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#67

Post by selimthegrim »

pjc50 wrote: post #35
Shivetya wrote: post #17

The death penalty isn't the problem and never has. There are far too many people who have no place in society and there is zero benefit to society to continue their existence. That being said, abuse by the legal system of those who cannot afford to defend themselves properly has gone on for far too long and its not just a Southern thing. From the bail bond market to the plea bargain junket of Federal Courts, justice…

There are far too many people who have no place in society and there is zero benefit to society to continue their existence That's the sort of rhetoric that normally preceeds genocides.

From a Pakistani television debate on the death penalty for blasphemy:

(anti-blasphemy commentator): How do you decide which half of the country gets to be the executioners?

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#68

Post by kazinator »

eghad wrote: post #53

How is that we have a system where we have an assistant district attorney (now running for DA) who not only openly believes we need to kill more people, but thinks they deserve to suffer as much physical pain as "humanly possible"? I mean his own colleagues question his mental instability, and nothing happens. When no one is willing to actually disbar someone like this, where are the effective checks on power?

That is clearly wrong; they only deserve to suffer as much pain as they inflicted, not as much as possible.

Ideally, offenders eligible for the death penalty should perish in exactly the same circumstances as what they inflicted. Someone who starved an infant to death should be starved; someone who strangled ought to be strangled and so on.

(By and large it's good enough to have them permanently gone by any means. That's the important thing: erasing the mistake.)

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#69

Post by aaronem »

eghad wrote: post #53

How is that we have a system where we have an assistant district attorney (now running for DA) who not only openly believes we need to kill more people, but thinks they deserve to suffer as much physical pain as "humanly possible"? I mean his own colleagues question his mental instability, and nothing happens. When no one is willing to actually disbar someone like this, where are the effective checks on power?

> How is that we have a system where we have an assistant district attorney (now running for DA) who not only openly believes we need to kill more people, but thinks they deserve to suffer as much physical pain as "humanly possible"?

Democracy's a bitch, ain't it?

Re: The Death Penalty in Louisiana

#70

Post by chucksmash »

blfr wrote: post #31
tP5n wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not a slope. Gay marriage and the death penalty are two very different things and I can't believe I'm typing this out. There also numerous reasons to be against the death penalty but not abortions, but something tells me I'd rather not have this discussion here and now [1]. [1] for what it's worth, an example not related but relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9770221

They're not very different if you believe that personal ethical beliefs can be used as a justification to not provide a service.

If you supply drugs to be used in an execution, you are part of a chain of actions that ends with the intentional taking of a life.

If you bake a cake for a gay couple, you are part of a chain of actions that sort of, kind of, indirectly might offend your sensibilities.

Those two outcomes are vastly dissimilar - equating them because they are both "doing things you object to as a matter of conscience" is too reductionist by half.

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