FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection • Hacker News Board

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#81

Post by higherpurpose » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 7:36 AM UTC

fru2013 wrote: post #13

I personally think that creating laws to prevent government surveillance is a pointless endeavor. The NSA has ignored and broken laws in the past, why would we expect them to follow new ones that are passed? The only way to prevent surveillance is with a technical solution (encryption), not a legal solution (more laws).

The problem isn't necessary the laws, but the fact that there never seems to be any punishment for abuses, so the NSA just learns the laws don't apply to them, and keep doing whatever they want. If our representatives actually punished them, we'd be in a different situation.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#82

Post by codezero » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 7:59 AM UTC

codezero wrote: post #30

This infuriates me, as I assume it infuriates a lot of people. What the fuck can we do, short term, and long term?

I was seriously hoping that someone had some feedback. Quite telling that there's basically nothing to be done.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#83

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 8:22 AM UTC

fru2013 wrote: post #13

I personally think that creating laws to prevent government surveillance is a pointless endeavor. The NSA has ignored and broken laws in the past, why would we expect them to follow new ones that are passed? The only way to prevent surveillance is with a technical solution (encryption), not a legal solution (more laws).

This is one of the few cases where "starve the beast" makes sense: there is a large entrenched power structure responsible for this, and the public is paying for it. A budgetary line of attack can work as well.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#84

Post by zkhalique » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 8:39 AM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #80

rtpg wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people have talked about only hearing one side of the case, but that's the same for all warrant proceedings. FISA court isn't about declaring people guilty, it's about declaring whether there's reasonable suspicion.

So how does the FISA court determine that "3-hop" people (millions) are "suspicious, then? The standard for an NSA "general warrant" is FAR, and I mean FAR weaker than for a regular warrant. Literally orders of magnitudes weaker, to the point you could barely consider it a "standard". Especially when the FISA court approves for for 3 months at once (and now for 6). What kind of "warrant" is that? Does that sound reas…

I hate to break it to you, but organizations and agencies are basically using humans to further their own desires, such as to continue existing and expand their powers. You can see this in organizations ranging from companies to government agencies. And Big Data is like crack cocaine to them. Do you really think you can cut off their access to something so eminently collectable? Do you think if it technology has enabled it, then organizations won't find a way to use it? If the USA spy agencies don't do it, the Chinese and Russians will. The details of some domestic law doesn't matter, they'll just find ways around it. At the end of the day, the organizations need the data. Humans can only fight organizations with other organizations... humans that try to get in the way on their own are eliminated and replaced.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#85

Post by bitJericho » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 8:47 AM UTC

higherpurpose wrote: post #79

ikeboy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you misunderstood him. He seems to be saying that almost no invalid requests were submitted, because there was a rigorous review before submission. The court might not be a rubber-stamp, but the agencies happened to only send reasonable requests, so they got approved.

The NSA asks for "general warrants" and you think that's "reasonable"? NSA: Can we spy on everyone at once? FISA: Why yes of course you can - BUT, you have to fill out this form first...and do it properly or we'll never approve you! NSA: Oh..but that's such a drag! Okay, fine, we'll do it. That's kind of what seems to be happening.

NSA: Aw man the supreme court just told us to stop. Fisa: Don't worry about them I'll approve it for "six" more months lol.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#86

Post by titzer » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 8:56 AM UTC

The solution is to use strong encryption all the time. When it becomes the standard mode of operation for the majority of people, protocols, and applications, it will no longer be suspicious (and therefore probable cause) for a warrant. Let them subpoena the encryption keys in court or burn CPU time trying to crack things they find important. Encryption will help resist indexing and slow down data mining, bringing back some of the privacy and freedom we used to have.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#87

Post by themeekforgotpw » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 9:08 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #86

The solution is to use strong encryption all the time . When it becomes the standard mode of operation for the majority of people, protocols, and applications, it will no longer be suspicious (and therefore probable cause) for a warrant. Let them subpoena the encryption keys in court or burn CPU time trying to crack things they find important. Encryption will help resist indexing and slow down data mining, bringing b…

Caveat here that the crypto needs to actually be good, and key management and negotiation needs to be good, and key sizes and algo parameters need to be good, and that hardware needs to be good, and that key escrow systems ("Secure" Enclave, "Trusted" Platform Module) need to be good, you can not use computing services - everything must be done locally (the third party doctrine means that copies of this data must be kept to be made available), and the software stack must be kept secure and the hardware must be trusted.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#88

Post by titzer » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 9:10 AM UTC

drjesusphd wrote: post #39

I'm really curious what skeletons the FISA judges have in their closets. Aren't you? So what makes you think the NSA isn't?

It's really scary to think of the potential for abuse and corruption that such a treasure trove represents. Why should we trust them with the ability to essentially blackmail everyone?

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#89

Post by titzer » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 9:11 AM UTC

themeekforgotpw wrote: post #87

titzer wrote: post #86

The solution is to use strong encryption all the time . When it becomes the standard mode of operation for the majority of people, protocols, and applications, it will no longer be suspicious (and therefore probable cause) for a warrant. Let them subpoena the encryption keys in court or burn CPU time trying to crack things they find important. Encryption will help resist indexing and slow down data mining, bringing b…

Caveat here that the crypto needs to actually be good, and key management and negotiation needs to be good, and key sizes and algo parameters need to be good, and that hardware needs to be good, and that key escrow systems ("Secure" Enclave, "Trusted" Platform Module) need to be good, you can not use computing services - everything must be done locally (the third party doctrine means that copies of this data must be…

We're making progress on all those fronts. And even ROT-13 is better than sending everything in plain text.

Re: FISA court rules NSA can resume bulk data collection

#90

Post by shadowmint » Wed, Jul 01, 2015, 9:15 AM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #69

shadowmint wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an average of 33 a week Sounds pretty reasonable, until you read: > Every few months, the FISA judges set aside their regular, public cases, travel to Washington, and take the bench inside a secure, windowless courtroom at 333 Constitution Avenue. Oh, so what actually happens is that every few months the judges get together and do a "rigorous review process of applications" of hundreds of applications ? Sounds legi…

I believe they rotate who has the duty.

A pair of judges every six months with 800 applications to review? Or a pair of judges every month with 150 applications to review? In what time period? Do they spend an hour? A whole day? A whole week? All we have to go on is one vague article.

...and that article suggests that (if we accept they rotate duty and meet monthly say) they spend, on average, (8 hours / 133 * 60 minutes) ~3.5 minutes carefully evaluating each application. If not, it's ~30 seconds per application.

So are the numbers wrong? Or is the bold assertion that they 'carefully review each application' completely farcical?

30 seconds to rubber stamp an application sounds about right to me.

The point remains; there is no 'fulltime' FISA court.

Periodically the presiding judges get together and process a bulk of applications all at once.