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Safari is the new IE

nolanlawson.com

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Re: Safari is the new IE

#341

Post by ndesaulniers »

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #321

Okay, I'm getting on this a little late, but this is where I have to say, Hacker News, you are full of shit. Every time someone comes up with an anti-Apple title, it gets several hundred points. I'm seeing 600+ right now. And the evidence does not corroborate the claim. In the beginning of the article, the author points out this set of techs as stuff that Apple does not support: {Service Worker, Web Components, Shado…

> Google is the only company really pushing it as a platform

Who's leading the charge on es6 implementation? [0] Who created asm.js and developed Web Assembly? Not Google.

[0] http://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/

Re: Safari is the new IE

#342

Post by carussell »

jasonlotito wrote: post #169
carussell wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this as a comment about the design decisions in the Safari UI, not how it performs.

So the stuff that I shouldn't spend time using in a browser? I don't really open up a browser hoping to spend time with it's UI.

First: I'm not the one who made the original comment, and therefore not the person you should be taking this up with. So why have you written this to me?

Second: If you are going to involve me in this, then I'll point out that of course people care about their browser UI, otherwise everyone would be using something like Conkeror, except with an even more ascetic UI philosophy.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#343

Post by mrbrowning »

exelius wrote: post #34

Disagree with this assessment. IE was so bad because Microsoft tried to go off and create its own standards that were incompatible with Mozilla / Firefox / etc. (I'm thinking of IE6 specifically). And this was big, core functionality like page layout and CSS; not some data structures that can be implemented in other ways (albeit with a performance hit). This was doubly bad because "enterprise" companies (SAP, SAS, Or…

Safari's speed is a tossup for me, in that opening new tabs and typing in the address bar both are often preceded by several second (!) delays before the UI responds. This persists across multiple instances of clearing all of my browsing data and even migrating to a new laptop. That I continue to use it over Chrome in spite of that implies a lot about the sorry state of browsers in general right now.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#344

Post by michaelwww »

jccalhoun wrote: post #70

"There was one company not in attendance, though, and they served as the proverbial elephant in the room that no one wanted to discuss. I heard them referred to cagily as “a company in California” or “a certain fruit company.” Their glowing logo illuminated nearly every laptop in the room, and yet it seemed like nobody dared speak their name. " Why wouldn't people just say "Apple?" Is this hyperbole or is there some…

Happy thousand day anniversary on HN! (I accidentally clicked your name.) The author is exaggerating, like he did with the title. IE was until recently a big drag on web dev, but Safari is not. Speaking about Apple in hushed tones seems like a joke by the author, because it seems to me that some devs who use Apple products really over-rate Apple's importance. I don't use Apple products and don't feel I am missing anything. Most important innovations in web dev are in the much bigger eco-system outside of Apple. My only concern is that Apple is onboard with WebAssembly, because it would be unfortunate if they did not implement that, but as the author said, WebKit is open source and someone will do it.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#345

Post by mikeash »

briandear wrote: post #332
mikeash wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's define it as apps that actually use a different browser engine , and aren't merely a reskin of the exact same engine used in Safari. In short, something that is actually capable of supporting new features that Safari doesn't. This is not possible on iOS without a jailbreak, because Apple simply doesn't allow alternative browser engines to be used.

Why not? Apple also doesn't allow Flash, so the question is, why? Does Apple make money from Safari? Is there a technical reason that might preclude another browser engine?

That is an excellent question I'm afraid I have no answer to.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#346

Post by [deleted] »

briandear wrote: post #332
mikeash wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's define it as apps that actually use a different browser engine , and aren't merely a reskin of the exact same engine used in Safari. In short, something that is actually capable of supporting new features that Safari doesn't. This is not possible on iOS without a jailbreak, because Apple simply doesn't allow alternative browser engines to be used.

Why not? Apple also doesn't allow Flash, so the question is, why? Does Apple make money from Safari? Is there a technical reason that might preclude another browser engine?

[deleted]

Re: Safari is the new IE

#347

Post by nolanl »

NietTim wrote: post #38

Nolan, I'm not familiar with what you do or have done, but have you ever tried to make a website back in the day? Ever tried to support IE6? 7? 8? IE literally broke the web. CSS rules which worked in every browser ever wouldn't work in IE. Entire webpages weren't formatting correctly, having to spend hours, days, on workarounds. Comparing Safari to IE is just wrong. Safari doesn't break the web, it 'just' lacks supp…

Yep, I have had to support IE7 and 8. IE6 was, thankfully, a bit before my time.

And yeah, the title is pretty clickbaity; guilty as charged! But my blog has no ads, so it's not like I'm making money off of it. I'm just trying to draw attention to what I think is an important issue.

As others have pointed out, it's all a matter of perspective. If you're trying to build for Web 2.0, then Safari is a fine browser. But if you're trying to build for Web 3.0 (or the "next web" or "appy web" or whatever you want to call it), then prepare to be disappointed.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#348

Post by craigvn »

a_c_s wrote: post #246
collyw wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous..." Why has that not resulted in anti competitive behavior lawsuits? MS got in to a fair bit of trouble for similar things. They didn't stop you installing an alternative.

Netscape used to be a paid product* before Microsoft made IE free. What Microsoft did was make a free competitor and install it on every machine running their OS. So what Microsoft did that was illegal was use their monopoly power to destroy an existing player. That's how they were "anti-competitive". While Apple not allowing any competing rendering engines to be written for iOS is anti-competitive in the dictionary…

Netscape screwed up and were standing on the edge of a cliff. Microsoft just gave them the last nudge off.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#349

Post by addicted44 »

a_c_s wrote: post #246
collyw wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Another difference is that MS never blocked you from installing a better browser, but Apple does that on iOS. That policy is becoming increasingly ridiculous..." Why has that not resulted in anti competitive behavior lawsuits? MS got in to a fair bit of trouble for similar things. They didn't stop you installing an alternative.

Netscape used to be a paid product* before Microsoft made IE free. What Microsoft did was make a free competitor and install it on every machine running their OS. So what Microsoft did that was illegal was use their monopoly power to destroy an existing player. That's how they were "anti-competitive". While Apple not allowing any competing rendering engines to be written for iOS is anti-competitive in the dictionary…

There were also the facts that IE was deeply integrated with the OS to the point where r was impossible to remove and MS had anti-competitive agreements with OEMs preventing them from providing Netscape bundled.

Re: Safari is the new IE

#350

Post by jfoster »

adamlett wrote: post #205
jfoster wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it lacks very basic functionality, isn't the effect the same as breaking the web? I think one unfortunate aspect of the article is that it focuses on some of the less common deficiencies of Safari. I would have called out mobile Safari being unable to download files, or Apple's insistence against video codecs that all other vendors are aligned in agreement on when it comes to video.

> If it lacks very basic functionality, isn't the effect the same as breaking the web? No. If what worked before continues to work, it means it's not broken. Also: What "very basic functionality" doesn't the latest versions of Safari support?

Well, I mentioned the two that I am most keenly aware of. I only know what I've come across, so I'm assuming there's lots more.

To my knowledge, file downloads worked in all browsers prior to mobile Safari being initially released. So Apple did release a browser that broke some quite basic web functionality.

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