Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows • Hacker News Board

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#71

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 9:15 PM UTC

evunveot wrote: post #67

tptacek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you not owned a lot of cats? Tooth decay in cats is a really common problem. Both our cats have needed teeth pulled.

Fair enough. My cat is only four years old. But my point is that we treat tooth decay like an inevitable consequence of failing to brush and floss when we actually know it's caused by the blooming of certain specific bacteria. Brushing with fluoride helps enamel resist the decay, but it does nothing to prevent the bad bacteria from blooming again in 12 hours. Admittedly, I hate taking care of my teeth and thinking ab…

Tooth decay has plagued humanity since before recorded history. Before dentistry, it used to kill people. It routinely kills animals in zoos. Presumably it kills them in the wild, too --- just, more slowly and painfully.

Which is not to moralize about your own dental hygiene. Dealing with the consequences of poor dental hygiene is what dentists are for. :)

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#72

Post by Mz » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 9:19 PM UTC

evunveot wrote: post #26

From what I've read, we've already identified the specific bacteria responsible for tooth decay [1], but there seems to have no interest in developing treatments based on that insight. Instead we're supposed to essentially sterilize our mouths and remineralize our teeth (which is something saliva does naturally) with topical fluoride twice a day. My cat has never brushed her teeth, and they're fine, presumably becaus…

I hope I live to see the day when the extent of oral hygiene maintenance and bad breath prevention is a toothpick and an occasional probiotic mouthwash or something.

What if you could do it now mostly with the right diet?

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#73

Post by DanBC » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 9:21 PM UTC

lutorm wrote: post #60

Having grown up in Sweden, being told that fluoride applied topically was functional at reducing caries but that eating toothpaste or swallowing the fluoride rinse that we got in elementary school was bad for you, I was astonished to learn that some countries put it in their water. Even in the U.S., toothpaste containers warn you not to swallow it and contact a Poison Control Center if you accidentally do. And then t…

Toothpaste has lots of fluoride in, because it's a topical treatment.

Eating the toothpaste risks "fluorosis" - discoloured teeth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#74

Post by PirateDave » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #57

evunveot wrote: post #26

From what I've read, we've already identified the specific bacteria responsible for tooth decay [1], but there seems to have no interest in developing treatments based on that insight. Instead we're supposed to essentially sterilize our mouths and remineralize our teeth (which is something saliva does naturally) with topical fluoride twice a day. My cat has never brushed her teeth, and they're fine, presumably becaus…

Have you seen a 50 year old cat? I bet their teeth would be completely rotten. Okay so house cats don't live that long.. but look at longer living mammals like horses. Their teeth are terrible at 20 years old. I think the human teeth will do fine without brushing for 20-30 years, enough to make babies. They aren't really designed for the 75 year life plan..

I could be totally incorrect about this theory, but I thought that's why we get wisdom teeth around that mark, since we would be essentially without teeth at that point in our life if we had went a lifetime without brushing.

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#75

Post by marze » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

My policy: if someone wants me to eat poison, even if in small doses, there better be some really bulletproof evidence of benefit.

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#76

Post by evunveot » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #71

evunveot wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. My cat is only four years old. But my point is that we treat tooth decay like an inevitable consequence of failing to brush and floss when we actually know it's caused by the blooming of certain specific bacteria. Brushing with fluoride helps enamel resist the decay, but it does nothing to prevent the bad bacteria from blooming again in 12 hours. Admittedly, I hate taking care of my teeth and thinking ab…

Tooth decay has plagued humanity since before recorded history. Before dentistry, it used to kill people. It routinely kills animals in zoos. Presumably it kills them in the wild, too --- just, more slowly and painfully. Which is not to moralize about your own dental hygiene. Dealing with the consequences of poor dental hygiene is what dentists are for. :)

Certainly wasn't my intention to engage in paleophilia (which unfortunately means sexual attraction to dinosaurs according to Urban Dictionary; I'm talking about the unreasoned assumption that anything humans experienced pre-civilization must be more "natural" and thus beneficial). I acknowledge that in the absence of a consistent oral hygiene regimen the health of my and my cat's teeth is at risk. I also hope that science will some day save both of us from some or all of the tedium and expense.

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#77

Post by evunveot » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 10:01 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #72

evunveot wrote: post #26

From what I've read, we've already identified the specific bacteria responsible for tooth decay [1], but there seems to have no interest in developing treatments based on that insight. Instead we're supposed to essentially sterilize our mouths and remineralize our teeth (which is something saliva does naturally) with topical fluoride twice a day. My cat has never brushed her teeth, and they're fine, presumably becaus…

I hope I live to see the day when the extent of oral hygiene maintenance and bad breath prevention is a toothpick and an occasional probiotic mouthwash or something. What if you could do it now mostly with the right diet?

I would do it. As long as it didn't involve seafood. What are we talking, cheese and yogurt?

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#78

Post by Mz » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 10:11 PM UTC

evunveot wrote: post #77

Mz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I live to see the day when the extent of oral hygiene maintenance and bad breath prevention is a toothpick and an occasional probiotic mouthwash or something. What if you could do it now mostly with the right diet?

I would do it. As long as it didn't involve seafood. What are we talking, cheese and yogurt?

Short answer: Good quality sea salt and an alkaline diet.

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#79

Post by slavik81 » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 10:13 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #57

evunveot wrote: post #26

From what I've read, we've already identified the specific bacteria responsible for tooth decay [1], but there seems to have no interest in developing treatments based on that insight. Instead we're supposed to essentially sterilize our mouths and remineralize our teeth (which is something saliva does naturally) with topical fluoride twice a day. My cat has never brushed her teeth, and they're fine, presumably becaus…

Have you seen a 50 year old cat? I bet their teeth would be completely rotten. Okay so house cats don't live that long.. but look at longer living mammals like horses. Their teeth are terrible at 20 years old. I think the human teeth will do fine without brushing for 20-30 years, enough to make babies. They aren't really designed for the 75 year life plan..

Surprisingly, the longest-lived housecat on record lived 38 years [1]. Much longer than you'd expect given that an average lifespan is just 12-15 years.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creme_Puff_%28cat%29

Re: Water Fluoridation May Not Prevent Cavities, Scientific Review Shows

#80

Post by ownedthx » Tue, Jun 30, 2015, 11:16 PM UTC

Since there are US cities like Texarkana, AR that have not have fluoride in the water ever, it seems they would be a decent way to harvest some data quickly and get to the bottom of this.

Anecdotally, I know a dentist that would work 2 days a week there as a sort of 'import-a-dentist' program, and she thought teeth were, in general, in much worse shape there than Little Rock, AR (3 hours away). Not enough to go on obviously.