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Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

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Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#13

Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards its drivers as well as towards Lyft.

This is from an old post but I think you'll find interesting:

Note on Uber: I think Uber is a great business and has a significantly net-positive impact on society, and I reserve judgment w/r/t whether TK and the other Uber execs are good or bad people - I can't conclude they are good because they run a good business, and I can't conclude they are bad because they say stupid things in public.

Note on Nietzche: In Thus Spake Zarathrusa, the "uberman" concept is (maybe) considered a positive that humanity should work towards in the absence of belief in God, and I think it can still be understood as such. The fact that history has attributed some very negative actions to the belief in this concept (Hitler, Leopold & Loeb's murder, etc.) is, in my opinion, not definitive but at the same time not entirely insignificant, but I'm also a Christian that believes in capital-M Morality so I'm biased against nihilism in general.

here's a thought I had a few months ago: how have there not been more thought pieces relating Uber-the-business's recent/relentless PR-debacles to Nietzsche's Ubermensch concept? I guess I'll give it a go.

Uber/Travis and his execs seem to demonstrate the belief that they are "overmen" in that they seem to believe that they transcend the rules of society and are destined to shape society and its values rather than the other way around (probably something not too uncommonly shared with HN readers…).

A few fun/funny/serious examples (in no particular order): 1. They outrightly express resistance to laws-as-is, and regularly threaten to ignore and sometimes do break those regs as necessary to conduct their business / benefit themselves and their consumers.

2. They hire lobbyists and other high-level political actors to change the laws they don't like and/or influence lawmakers - not atypical for a large company, but they did this earlier than most companies at their stage, with much more specific agendas in place and with a lot more PR surrounding it (the last may or may not have been their doing, hard to say). They have a belief (probably well-founded) that they can use the political process to make the law bend to their will. “Creating New Values” as any good uberman should.

3. They call their central system “Godmode” which implies that they, the viewers, are like God (a bit of a stretch I know…couldn’t resist)

4. They are proud that using the data in Godmode they can track, predict and identify specifics of other human being’s behavior.

5. The whole “we’ll pay our own researchers to smear journalists” thing - another good example of Creating New Values and constructing narratives.

6. The general feeling that Uber (perhaps correctly) operates against “states” and “sovereigns” and “systems” more than corporate competitors (who even writes about Lyft anymore these days…)

The funny thing is that after thinking this through, all (good?) CEOs of major corporations basically operate like this (and so do many other tech-leaders - it is often associated with libertarian-leaning individuals like P. Thiel, etc.) - the difference is that Uber (1) has a name that calls it out and (2) seems to be especially prone to doing this in public and (3) sometimes appears to relishes their “overlord-iness” a little too much. You can call it being crass or being honest. In any case, they seem to be getting hip to the system and playing nice which of course can be viewed as just another level of the game, etc. - still, glad to see them do it because I overall think that playing nice is best (especially when you can afford to do it) and with a $50b val. and a couple billion raised, I think they can spare some good behavior, at least for now =)

Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#14

Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards its drivers as well as towards Lyft.

There are people who hate Uber for a variety of reasons.

The way Uber treats its employees? Pretty evil.

The way Uber competes against existing taxi services? Not evil at all in my opinion.

Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#15
post #8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still surprised that Uber is entering such competitive markets. I mean, in much of the western world, they're using a mobile app to side step cab hailing laws and break long standing taxi oligopolies. Does anyone know what market flaws they're solving in India and Asia?

The same is true in New Zealand, where the only real requirements to be a taxi are around having a passenger endorsement to your license and police background checks. > Does anyone know what market flaws they're solving in India and Asia? Well the only market flaw they appear to be solving here is that they aren't hoarding more of the money in the market...

In NZ the advantage is convenience and cost - you can get a ride far faster, payment is automatic, and the rates are lower, especially for shorter trips, than the incumbent taxi companies.

Some of the local competitors have some of that (e.g. Zoomy), but they charge extra fees for paying though the app which makes them expensive, and also means you need to go through more of a process when the ride is finished.

Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#16
post #5
post #2

This is really interesting. I believe this might be attribute to all the Uber promotions in Asia. I have heard from all my friends in India/China that Uber rides are actually free for around 10-15 rides. Also, they are giving tons of money to Drivers to promote Uber in India. An average Uber driver in Bangalore earns 110000 INR per month where as an entry level software engineer in GOOG/AMZN in India earns 80000 INR/…

I'm still surprised that Uber is entering such competitive markets. I mean, in much of the western world, they're using a mobile app to side step cab hailing laws and break long standing taxi oligopolies. Does anyone know what market flaws they're solving in India and Asia?

I don't like how uber flaunts the law in so many places, but their competitive advantage doesn't come from non-compliance.

The service is plainly better. The cars are better, the drivers are rated, payment is easier, hailing is easier, knowing where your cab is and how long it will be and how much is will cost before you start your ride ... is better.

I live in the Twin Cities ... not a place where cabs are dense enough to just hail one walking down the street (unless it's in a prime drinking/sporting hour & location).

Uber, Lyft, and the city of Minneapolis worked together to make uber-like services legal while giving concessions to the local traditional taxi drivers without compromising appropriate regulations. Everyone behaved reasonably which is sadly extremely rare everywhere else.

The running theory is that unreasonable people either leave Minnesota or are found only after the snow thaws (please don't take this too seriously :) )

Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#17

Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards its drivers as well as towards Lyft.

Uber is a net positive I believe. Irrespective of what others think of their practices the product is substantially superior to any alternatives I have pwrrsonally used.

Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#18

Tangential to OP: How does HN feel about the "evilness" of Uber? At my school the general feel is that Uber is pretty evil, notably for its attitudes towards its drivers as well as towards Lyft.

There are people who hate Uber for a variety of reasons. The way Uber treats its employees? Pretty evil. The way Uber competes against existing taxi services? Not evil at all in my opinion.

"Contractors," not employees. Except for that one in California. And the 4,600 or so connected to the mothership.

Re: Uber Bonds Term Sheet Reveals $470M in Operating Losses

#20
post #5
post #2

This is really interesting. I believe this might be attribute to all the Uber promotions in Asia. I have heard from all my friends in India/China that Uber rides are actually free for around 10-15 rides. Also, they are giving tons of money to Drivers to promote Uber in India. An average Uber driver in Bangalore earns 110000 INR per month where as an entry level software engineer in GOOG/AMZN in India earns 80000 INR/…

I'm still surprised that Uber is entering such competitive markets. I mean, in much of the western world, they're using a mobile app to side step cab hailing laws and break long standing taxi oligopolies. Does anyone know what market flaws they're solving in India and Asia?

When I went to Delhi, I had to haggle with the tuk tuk driver. In some cities in China, there seemed to be the impression that some taxies were not trustworthy and some people only ride from particular taxi companies. Uber was not in China or India when I last visited, but they do solve the trust problem and I would take them when I visit again.
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