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Could dark matter not exist?

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Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#41
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real science is ugly because there are a bunch of theories that kinda sorta fit, but not really well. I think Maxwell had something like 40 equations for electricity. Give it a hundred years and hundreds of thousands of grad student hours, and something quite clean emerges. The unknown edges are messy, but as competing theories get winnowed out, merged and refined they become clear and concise.

Maxwell had 20 equations for electromagnetism, because he didn't use vector notation, so he had to do the equations component by component. But that had nothing to do with having multiple theories. The current "Maxwell's equations" are exactly the same as Maxwell's 20 equations, merely expressed in a more convenient form.

Wikipedia claims: "Less well known is that Heaviside's equations and Maxwell's are not exactly the same, and in fact it is easier to modify the latter to make them compatible with quantum physics.[25]"

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#42
Sigh. Sure, it's possible, but very unlikely.

These "MOND" gravity theories purport to explain observations better than the theory of dark matter, but they don't. They explain some things and leave gaping holes elsewhere. On the whole they are hugely inferior theories in terms of matching observational evidence. Their only advantage is that they lack the existence of massive, weakly interacting particles, which a lot of people seem to have strong objections to despite the fact that several types of such particles are already known to exist.

Throughout the entire history of the development of the theory of dark matter the bias has always been against the idea of true dark matter, unseen particles that make up most of the mass of the Universe. But at every single step all of the other possibilities have been eliminated as realistic explanations of the evidence. The cold WIMP dark matter theory is the only one that explains the structure of the cosmic microwave background radiation, the large scale structure of the Universe, and the structure and behavior of galaxies and galaxy clusters. At this point the theory of dark matter is remarkably well hemmed in, it would be absolutely shocking to an extreme degree if it did not truly exist in the form we think it does.

There's additionally a very elegant mechanism behind the formation of dark matter. It seems most likely to be composed of super-symmetric particles. Such particles would only be able to form in extreme, high-energy conditions. Precisely the sort of conditions that existed in the early era of the Universe immediately after the Big Bang. So the early Universe would have been creating huge quantities of such particles, which would then not interact much due to their weak interactivity. It wouldn't be until the Universe had expanded enough and cooled down enough to halt their production. This would neatly explain why so much of the mass of the Universe is in the form of dark matter rather than conventional matter.

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#43

It reads like a great example of how theory works. You have some evidence (old planets), and a model that predicts it well (Newton/Kepler). Then some new evidence comes in (Uranus), and the theory is almost right, but not quite. So we modify it a little, or we start searching for an extra mass to explain the error. Then some more experimental evidence comes in (galactic radial velocity), and we are thinking about mod…

> Then some more experimental evidence comes in (galactic radial velocity), and we are thinking about modifying the theory a bit more (MOND). This is good for the radial velocity explanation, but not certain other things. We suppose there's some dark matter, and think about the consequences that would have. Then we see evidence consistent with that.

Just to be clear, in case someone interprets that as being a time-ordered list, the existence of some "dark" matter was the proposed explanation prior to the development of MOND (though MOND followed very quickly).

Robust evidence for dark matter is generally (rightfully) attributed to the work of Vera Rubin (as in the parent article), but it is worth noting that Friz Zwicky also proposed dark matter in the 1930s to explain the velocities of galaxies in clusters.

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#44
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real science is ugly because there are a bunch of theories that kinda sorta fit, but not really well. I think Maxwell had something like 40 equations for electricity. Give it a hundred years and hundreds of thousands of grad student hours, and something quite clean emerges. The unknown edges are messy, but as competing theories get winnowed out, merged and refined they become clear and concise.

Maxwell had 20 equations for electromagnetism, because he didn't use vector notation, so he had to do the equations component by component. But that had nothing to do with having multiple theories. The current "Maxwell's equations" are exactly the same as Maxwell's 20 equations, merely expressed in a more convenient form.

In geometric algebra it's a single equation. ∇E=∂B/∂t

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#45

Interesting, I always thought of dark matter as just a lot of extra "dust", the dust that clumps to make the stars that make up the universe. The asteroid belt, the extra mass in our kuiper or oort clouds, etc. The dust that blocks parts of our view of the Milky way. This article (and others I'm now skimming) point out that dark matter needs other magical properties however. Why is that the case? Why does simple "dar…

The current best explanation for all of the observational evidence is a "cold dark matter" (CDM) theory, where the dark matter is composed of "WIMPs" (weakly interacting massive particles). Neutrinos are WIMPs that we know exist, and compose some small fraction of dark matter, but neutrinos are "hot", they travel at relativistic speeds, rather than much slower speeds.

There have been many theories of what the "unseen mass" could have been made of before the CDM/WIMP theory gained ground, but those competing theories have been eliminated by observational evidence which contradicts their predicted effects. Large amounts of dust would block visible light and impose characteristic changes on the light that passes through it. We see dust in other galaxies and our own, but we don't not see nearly enough dust in the right locations and in the right quantities to account for the missing mass. So it can't be dust. Large gas clouds are another idea. Huge, transparent, whispy clouds of gas. But these too would affect the light passing through them, adding the spectral absorption signature of the gas to the light coming from the other side of the cloud. We can observe several large concentrations of gas around galaxies, and often the mass of that gas is larger than the total mass of stars in the galaxy, but it's still far too low, by an order of magnitude or more, to be the missing mass. We also see cases, such as the bullet cluster, where we can map the location of the stars, gas, and the overall mass (through gravitational lensing), and we see that the mass is not where the gas is. Another theory is that it could be not dust but bigger chunks of stuff, like planets or brown dwarfs, so called "MaCHOs" (Massive Compact Halo Objects). But to make up the missing mass there would have to be a great many of them. We can collect statistics on how common such objects are in our own galaxy and nearby galaxies using gravitational micro-lensing surveys. Because there are a huge number of stars in the sky, and if there were lots of MaCHOs floating around then every once in a while one would happen to be precisely lined up along the line of sight to another star and that arrangement would slightly brighten the remote star. We can monitor a huge number of stars using modern digital imaging systems and survey the MaCHO population this way. We've found several such micro-lensing events but again the observations put an upper limit on the MaCHO population which is far, far below what could possibly account for all of the missing mass.

No matter how you slice the observations, you still end up with a lot of missing mass and a lot of inconsistent observations. Unless you accept the possibility of WIMP dark matter. When you do that then all of the observations fall into place. Not just the above but also things like the large scale structure of the universe, the structure of the cosmic microwave background radiation, and so forth.

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#46

Sigh. Sure, it's possible, but very unlikely. These "MOND" gravity theories purport to explain observations better than the theory of dark matter, but they don't. They explain some things and leave gaping holes elsewhere. On the whole they are hugely inferior theories in terms of matching observational evidence. Their only advantage is that they lack the existence of massive, weakly interacting particles, which a lot…

Did you read the article? It agrees with you.

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#47
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maxwell had 20 equations for electromagnetism, because he didn't use vector notation, so he had to do the equations component by component. But that had nothing to do with having multiple theories. The current "Maxwell's equations" are exactly the same as Maxwell's 20 equations, merely expressed in a more convenient form.

In geometric algebra it's a single equation. ∇E=∂B/∂t

Actually you can unify E and B into a closed two-form F and get in vacuum

dF = 0

d★F = ★j

Where j = rho dt + jx dx + jy dy + jz dz is the charge and current density, ★ is the Hodgestar operator and d is the exterior derivative. The equations in a medium are slighly less elegant.

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#48

Interesting, I always thought of dark matter as just a lot of extra "dust", the dust that clumps to make the stars that make up the universe. The asteroid belt, the extra mass in our kuiper or oort clouds, etc. The dust that blocks parts of our view of the Milky way. This article (and others I'm now skimming) point out that dark matter needs other magical properties however. Why is that the case? Why does simple "dar…

The name isn't great. It sounds like matter that doesn't produce light, when it's really "matter" that's invisible. But not matter you can touch. Which makes it not really matter in normal English. You probably can't see it either. So "Invisible Untouchable Gravitation Sources" would be a more descriptive name. I don't think it'll catch on.

Perhaps it could be some form of friction we don't yet understand? I mean a form of gravitational friction?

The nice part of being an armchair physicist is spouting off nonsense - I suppose if I really wanted to find out, I could make up a mathematical model of my theory and then find out if the evidence fits. Sadly, I really have no idea how to do that!

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#49
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give it a hundred years and hundreds of thousands of grad student hours, and something quite clean emerges. Ugh, and we just had this on here the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9779206 :-)

I'll defer to your expert opinion of course, but it seems like faraday discovered some odd behavior in 1821, maxwell codified it in 1861. By 1884 Heaviside reformulated them into the modern form. Perhaps 100 years is an exaggeration, but the point is it takes time to make sense of what the heck is going on. Really, pick anything. someone notices something odd, tries to explain it. there are many many experiments. Som…

100 years is not an exaggeration.

It took approximately 100 years after Darwin for all relevant fields of science to come to a more or less consistent understanding of the history of this planet.

That's how long it took for (1) paleontologists to dig up enough fossils, sort them, categorize them, and determine the relationships between them; (2) geologists to figure out how plate tectonics have shaped Earth over long periods of time; (3) physicists to discover and refine radioisotope dating methods; and (4) astronomers to place all of that in the context of the evolution of the universe as a whole. If any of these pieces didn't come together at the right time, we might still be teaching young-Earth creationism in schools.

Contrary to popular perception, science moves rather slowly. We who work in the fast-moving subfield of computer science and information technology often forget that.

Re: Could dark matter not exist?

#50
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read one of his articles from his Website. He mixes physics and mythology with impunity. No wonder, his theories are not taken seriously.

So, say, if someone comes to you with a clean demonstration of how and why something is happening in the world, people verify it and it proves correct, and (s)he says the idea was revealed while smoking pot in a mystical hotel in north canada, or france for that matter, you'd say no one should take the theory seriously? Good job!

No, but fortunately that's not at all what the parent poster said either.
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