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Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

anu.edu.au

21–30 of 249 posts

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#21

Or, maybe, Everett was right.

Most physicists or, depending on who you talk to, nearly half of physicists, would appear to agree with you.

I'm convinced that the Copenhagen interpretation remains popular because by making observation itself an integral part of the theory, you allow us to postulate that there is something special about human brains. But 'mysterious observation' is the luminiferous aether of quantum mechanics.

photonic29: I would like to continue our discussion, but HN has some kind of stupid rule where I can't make more than five posts within a (I think?) 12 hour period. I don't know if this is a general rule that applies to everyone, or simply one of the innumerable passive-aggressive account handicaps our gracious mods will afflict us with if we catch them on a bad day.

At any rate, I can't post anymore for now, so our discussion about MWI and Copenhagen interpretation can't happen. Sorry.

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#22
post #20

What does this mean? If there was a supernova eons ago in another galaxy and I'm the only human who had been hit by a cosmic ray, does that mean it didn't exist or happen until ... ? Does measurement have to include an agent? Could measurement mean interaction with other atoms?

>Does measurement have to include an agent? Could measurement mean interaction with other atoms?

Indeed it can. Roughly put, if information about the state left the undetermined system, a measurement has been made. One of the most frustrating interpretations of literature such as this is the idea that there is something spooky, special, and reality-making about a conscious mind. Lots to think about there philosophically, but the physics happens at lower levels of abstraction.

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#25

Clever optimization by our simulators, Big up

I've always wanted to read (or write?) a book about us determining we are in a simulation, but we find subtle flaws like this we're able to exploit in weird ways. Kind of like breaking out of a VM through register flaws or something. Anyone know of a story along those lines?

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#26
post #25

Clever optimization by our simulators, Big up

I've always wanted to read (or write?) a book about us determining we are in a simulation, but we find subtle flaws like this we're able to exploit in weird ways. Kind of like breaking out of a VM through register flaws or something. Anyone know of a story along those lines?

Check out Greg Egan's Permutation City in which sort of the opposite happens.

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#27
post #25

Clever optimization by our simulators, Big up

I've always wanted to read (or write?) a book about us determining we are in a simulation, but we find subtle flaws like this we're able to exploit in weird ways. Kind of like breaking out of a VM through register flaws or something. Anyone know of a story along those lines?

Write it. Always thought about it, never seen it... except for Reggie Watts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdHK_r9RXTc

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#29
post #20

What does this mean? If there was a supernova eons ago in another galaxy and I'm the only human who had been hit by a cosmic ray, does that mean it didn't exist or happen until ... ? Does measurement have to include an agent? Could measurement mean interaction with other atoms?

The trouble with questions like yours is that we're the ones asking them. The results of an unobserved measurement cannot be known, so there's no way to completely remove agency from our experiments.

Personally, I think the simpler and less egocentric view is that all measurements produce wavefunction collapse, even when there's nobody looking.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann–Wigner_interpretat... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_problem if you want to read more.

Re: Reality doesn’t exist until it is measured, quantum experiment finds

#30

How can you measure what doesn't exist?

You can make an observation of a system whose state is undetermined. By interrogating the system for its state, a state becomes determined. Suppose, for example, that you have a flipped coin and sent it rotating in space, never hitting the floor. Is it heads or is it tails? Until it is looked at, the question doesn't really make sense. And for this case, we'll define "looking at it" to mean sticking out your hand and catching it. There is a probability that it's landed heads up in your hand, and a complimentary probability that it's landed tails up. Once it's in your hand though, you can confidently say which state it's in.

Now, you could definitely take issue with this example, because you could argue that the rotation of the coin is well described, so with initial conditions, you can predict its position at any given moment. But imagine a microscopic quantum system, and, for the sake of this simple explanation, believe that its "rotating through the air" state really does not have any precise heads or tails definition. Until something gets in the way of that system, creating an interaction that exchanges information about its observable state, it's not meaningful to say that it's in one of the observable states at all.

A superpositition of states, as such, is essentially the representation of a state in terms of a basis set of observables. In the case of the coin, heads and tails are the two observable states, they are orthogonal, and they fully represent the state space of the coin. You could flip the coin, and put its state vector into the form of sqrt(2)/2 * Heads + sqrt(2)/2 * Tails. This state isn't observable, but it can be described in terms of observable components, where the coefficients represent the probabilities that a given observable state will be measured upon observation.

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