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Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

theguardian.com

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Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#61

Post by golergka »

golergka wrote: post #51
jkoudys wrote: post #22

Every time this topic comes up, the discussion always revolves around whether or not Uber is properly licensed, or if it's fair for them to operate. What's often overlooked is the very reason so many of these licenses became as valuable as they did in the first place, and like so many economic issues it boils down to one thing: trust. For example, anyone who's seen more of NYC than just JFK airport and Times Square k…

And that's exactly why I like Get Taxi and Uber: they are most trustworthy. In a usual system, taxi parks have too little power and influence, each of them individually, to make these guarantees, and government has the power, but doesn't really have an incentive to do a really good job. Uber/Lyft/Gett, on the other hand, are big enough to have the power of control, but at the same time they still have competition whi…

I think that this comment lacked arguments, so I decided to provide an example of my logic.

Let's imagine that there's a bad driver — nothing horrible enough to be newsworthy, but just bad manners, bad routes, stuff like that. Let's imagine that he operated at an individual taxi park. This means that to provide a feedback to authority, the user would have to spend his time to call the company, to "snitch" about the driver. Would someone do it just to say that "the driver wasn't especially bad, but I would prefer better in the future"? Actually, I think yes, they would, but the probability of this is much slower than a user casually clicking 3 stars icon after the ride. And when you have less data points (customer support calls vs star rating actions), your information is worse has more noise in it. So, your decision making about hiring/firing drivers is worse. This is an argument about size.

And the argument about motivation — I think it's more or less obvious. Let's say your taxi driver has a city-issued beautiful plate in his cab. Do you even know who to call after he loads you off at a wrong street? Do you think they will be working at 11pm on Friday? Do you think they will be responsive and appreciative of the situation? Well, I assume that you interacted with bureaucrats at least once in your life, so the questions are really rhetorical.

These are examples about only one component of the trust issue, customer support and detection of bad performers, but mechanisms like this would work in other situations too.

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#62

Post by aikah »

steve19 wrote: post #23

I am astounded that the French government is doing exactly what the violent Taxi protesters (rioters?) wanted. This sends a clear message to any other groups: burn enough cars and blockade an airport and you will get what you want. I thought the Taxi drivers would be condemned by politicians and the French public.

Well that's how you get stuffs in France, taxis, farmers, truckers, nurses,alike... If you want something from the government in France you've got to set on fire, or destroy something in Paris or you won't be heard.

No surprise here.

It has always been that way. Elections are meaningless in this country, chaos in the streets of Paris has always been more effective than a vote to bend a government that knows nothing but reaction, that never acts nor has a long term political vision for this country.

Everything makes perfect sense. The french government is always in that defensive position. That's an unfortunate but direct consequence of the structure of the 5th republic.

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#63

Post by dylanjermiah »

agumonkey wrote: post #58
dylanjermiah wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure what point you're trying to make, would you mind expanding?

I distrust the underlying forces structuring light new businesses like Uber. When the entry cost is too low, people have no reason to put real effort. On the other side of the spectrum, Parisian cabs suffer from too high entry cost, AFAIU they have to work "hard" for a long time before they can reimburse the licence. And that contrast is what's causing the violence.

Okay I understand. The rating system does a good job to resolve that issue. Under a 4.7 and you are not allowed to drive on the system (IIRC). Personally I've experienced, and talked to ~50+ people, who have experienced a far superior service using Uber than alternatives.

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#64

Post by karambahh »

They are also detained for unlawful data retention (the 1981 "Information & Libertés" law, which is seen by many as very strict regarding personal data).

It seems likely they will get them either directly or indirectly (ala "AlCapone" who got caught on tax related offences, not alcohol smuggling).

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#65

Post by dylanjermiah »

mcuk2k wrote: post #52
Shivetya wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When government conspires with business to create a shortage it needs to be shaken up. The cost to entry for taxi services should not be the absurd numbers quoted in many cities, a number which only exists to benefit the existing companies and the politicians they support. What likely annoys these people the most is that their little game is being called out. Regulation has its place, that is not stifling competition…

The good thing about governments conspiring to create a shortage is that taxi drivers make a reasonable income. This is an aspect that Silcon-Valley-style technology platforms have no apparent interest in supporting. For example, as time progresses Adsense might sign up more and more publisher capacity, yet that pushes down the income and discourages respectable publishers from using the service. You go from a fairly…

A large majority of Uber drivers are former taxi drivers, you don't have to lease a vehicle for 45k per year, choose hours of work, and you have more control over passengers bad behaviour (two way rating system).

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#66

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #29
makeitsuckless wrote: post #9

> The standoff reflects larger tensions in France over how to regulate fast-moving technology and stay globally competitive while ensuring labour protections. This kind of biased journalism just pisses me off. Uber has nothing to do with "fast-moving technology". They could have done this service with on old fashioned phone dispatch in the 50s and it would still be the same illegal operation. Sure, they've added some…

They pay the fines and the fines are cheaper than complying with laws designed to protect monopolistic interests. You can call it illegal, but when the economics works out such that the fines for something illegal are less than the competing regulated service something needs to change.

Something like "start arresting executives"?

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#67

Post by dylanjermiah »

therobot24 wrote: post #24
Uberphallus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, as paying fines is cheaper than paying for a license. When you get to that point, it's obvious that the regulation is backwards, and it's nobody but taxi drivers that made it this way: they got licenses for free, then fought for their right to transfer them for money, then they fought to limit new licensing. Basically they lobbied for free money and screwing customers.

> it's obvious that the regulation is backwards Not disagreeing here. However, fines are put in place as a deterrent. In this instance, their purpose is a punishment for breaking a law. Uber is treating them like a tax and the government appears to disagree with that interpretation. If this were a case of a chemical company continuing to improperly dispose of waste, i'm sure at some point you'd want the government to…

Improperly disposing waste is not equivalent to providing a better service cheaper and quicker.

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#68

Post by jkoudys »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #44
jkoudys wrote: post #22

Every time this topic comes up, the discussion always revolves around whether or not Uber is properly licensed, or if it's fair for them to operate. What's often overlooked is the very reason so many of these licenses became as valuable as they did in the first place, and like so many economic issues it boils down to one thing: trust. For example, anyone who's seen more of NYC than just JFK airport and Times Square k…

"Instead, as citizens, we should look at the regulations we have and ask if they still serve to protect people as they once did, or if they now exist to protect political and business interests" Answer: No. Not at all. Now what? Vote everybody out because they didn't let Uber/Lyft into my city? Cool. Then what? Shall every 4 years I vote everyone out of office to solve my one or two top issues? Great. I can now chang…

If your only political involvement is to vote, then no I don't think you're going to have much success in influencing policy. There's a whole lot more you can do: attend council meetings, participate in the q&a at debates, work within a party (where applicable) to support candidates and issues you believe in, write well-researched articles intended for an audience that doesn't already agree with you, or even run for a position in government yourself.

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#69

Post by Retric »

golergka wrote: post #61
golergka wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's exactly why I like Get Taxi and Uber: they are most trustworthy. In a usual system, taxi parks have too little power and influence, each of them individually, to make these guarantees, and government has the power, but doesn't really have an incentive to do a really good job. Uber/Lyft/Gett, on the other hand, are big enough to have the power of control, but at the same time they still have competition whi…

I think that this comment lacked arguments, so I decided to provide an example of my logic. Let's imagine that there's a bad driver — nothing horrible enough to be newsworthy, but just bad manners, bad routes, stuff like that. Let's imagine that he operated at an individual taxi park. This means that to provide a feedback to authority, the user would have to spend his time to call the company, to "snitch" about the d…

Tips are the standard solution for this. Drivers end up making less when there rude.

PS: My response to rating systems is to generally give everyone 1 or 2 stars. Otherwise you end up with https://xkcd.com/1098/ making the whole thing pointless.

Re: Two Uber managers detained in France over 'illicit' low-cost service

#70

Post by at-fates-hands »

crdb wrote: post #40

The context is important. France happens to have a very influential taxi monopoly headquartered in Paris. The broad lines have been sketched by a recent Nouvel Obs article [1]. Amongst other things, the former head of the French FBI is now chairman of one of the group's taxi companies, right after he delivered an internal government report skewering taxi competitors (and that was probably just the tip of the iceberg)…

Are there no unions in France? I thought this was a big part of the argument as well.
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