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Are killer whales persons?

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Re: Are killer whales persons?

#51
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious; can you point to any references?

Mhhh... I'm curious also. Well, killer whales are Dolphinidae so technically they are big dolphins. They killed some humans in the past, that is for sure. Some killer whale species are piscivorous and relatively safe, but other species eat mainly mammals, and are probably much more dangerous to humans. Captive pygmy killer whales are really nasty also. They howl loudly (like wolves) and actively charge against humans…

I've heard that there haven't been any cases of orca fatalities in the wild. All of the fatalities have occurred with captive orcas.

There are dolphin attacks but I have not heard of a fatality. But one thing to consider is that some species of dolphin are more aggressive and sometimes attack and kill other kinds of dolphins and porpoises. For no reason that we can discern.

Regardless, I don't think the fact that all dolphins aren't nice to humans means anything against their intelligence/sentience. All humans aren't nice to other humans.

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#52
A lot of the comments here seem to be focusing on the definition of 'person'. The fact is, 'person' has always been a species-ambiguous term. Anything that exhibits 'personality' is a person, by some definitions.

That said, I get some very strange vibes from the way this article is written, especially give the subtitle that humans may not be superior. Some choice quotes:

>> Orcas, with their big brains, complex social structures, mysterious communications, and mind-boggling sixth sense, by their very existence, challenge the long-standing belief that human beings are the planet’s only intelligent occupants

"by their very existence, challenge the long-standing belief"... really? Why are any of these a true measure of intelligence?

>> Social life for killer whales, as we have seen, is deeper and more omnipresent than it is for humans

This is supposition, at best.

>> If orcas have established empathy as a distinctive evolutionary advantage, it might behoove a human race awash in war and psychopathy to pay attention.

Let's just ignore the way they can turn on one another and fight against other pods. Not to mention the truly brutal ways they hunt other species. So they show what we perceive as empathy. Let's apply that idea across all Orcas as if it were a rule, and then compare it to the worst humans in existence. Great.

>> The ability to experience positive emotions, like love and attachment, would mean that dogs have a level of sentience comparable to that of a human child

This is used as supporting proof, but when read by itself seems more like someone pointing out the obvious flaw of anthropomorphizing the actions of animals.

>> The “social cognition” that arises from this kind of richly shared experience of the world would even lead to a different sense of self than humans experience [...] The communal experience might actually change the boundaries of the self to include several individuals [...] This clearly indicates that dolphins—and particularly killer whales [...] have powerful emotional and empathic connection

So we're jumping from 'could and might' to saying the evidence 'clearly indicates' something?

I'm not trying to be overly negative, this article just strikes me as someone who is trying to twist what we know to suit their own agenda.

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#53

I think the real caution behind giving the status of person to a non-human has nothing to do with animals, but with removing the status of person from certain classes of humans. The atrocities of the last century should probably suffice to establish a measure of caution when redefining personhood.

can you provide an example where expanding the definition of personhood was abused as an excuse to commit atrocities?

Expanding the definition to include animals necessarily involves redefining personhood, and that's the risk. Expanding personhood doesn't necessitate removing classes of people from personhood, but allowing for its redifitinion makes it possible.

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#54
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term person has established precedent, both for humans and non-humans. For humans, the legality of abortion is often thought of in terms of the humanity of the embyro. However, the actual legal issue is whether the law extends to the embyro the right of personhood. Peter Singer has advocated both for the personhood of certain animals and the non-personhood of certain humans (including live infants below certain c…

The abortion debate is largely orthogonal to the personhood of a foetus. There is no precedent for making it illegal to refuse to risk your health, well-being and bodily integrity to sustain another person with your own body. If the risk is negligible, sure, everything else would be denial of assistance -- but pregnancy (to say nothing of birth) is extremely risky as far as biological processes go. You could argue ab…

I'm only arguing that the term personhood has extensive use in definining rights for humans and non-humans, providing a prominent ethicist as an example. I'm not trying to open up an abortion debate in a comment thread, because those simply go no where, influence no one, and fail to advance a meaningful dialogue.

You can certainly disagree with applying personhood to the abortion debate and claim an unlimited number of nefaroious motives behind pro-life advocates, but those would be different discussions. The term personhood is used widely for embyronic and non-human rights, that's the extent of my claim.

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also documented cases of dolphins killing humans.

I'm curious; can you point to any references?

just google "dolphin killing humans."

here's one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ti%C3%A3o

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#56
post #25

I've skimmed through this a couple of times, and I think the answer is: it doesn't matter, because this article is actually about ending orca captivity by the Sea Worlds of the world. The personhood premise is just a macguffin.

According to this article, there's evidence to suggest that keeping orcas in captivity is detrimental to their well being. Why does having that evidence suddenly mean having an opinion on what to do with it is off limits?

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mhhh... I'm curious also. Well, killer whales are Dolphinidae so technically they are big dolphins. They killed some humans in the past, that is for sure. Some killer whale species are piscivorous and relatively safe, but other species eat mainly mammals, and are probably much more dangerous to humans. Captive pygmy killer whales are really nasty also. They howl loudly (like wolves) and actively charge against humans…

I've heard that there haven't been any cases of orca fatalities in the wild. All of the fatalities have occurred with captive orcas. There are dolphin attacks but I have not heard of a fatality. But one thing to consider is that some species of dolphin are more aggressive and sometimes attack and kill other kinds of dolphins and porpoises. For no reason that we can discern. Regardless, I don't think the fact that all…

That orcas avoid harming humans has long been a part of the legends of Pacific Northwest tribes. And, as this article suggests, Orcas do indeed seem to have a taboo against eating us:

http://science.kqed.org/quest/2011/07/20/why-killer-whales-d...

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#58
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mhhh... I'm curious also. Well, killer whales are Dolphinidae so technically they are big dolphins. They killed some humans in the past, that is for sure. Some killer whale species are piscivorous and relatively safe, but other species eat mainly mammals, and are probably much more dangerous to humans. Captive pygmy killer whales are really nasty also. They howl loudly (like wolves) and actively charge against humans…

I've heard that there haven't been any cases of orca fatalities in the wild. All of the fatalities have occurred with captive orcas. There are dolphin attacks but I have not heard of a fatality. But one thing to consider is that some species of dolphin are more aggressive and sometimes attack and kill other kinds of dolphins and porpoises. For no reason that we can discern. Regardless, I don't think the fact that all…

Orcas can be local or transient, transient (pelagic) can be very dangerous just by accident. Wikipedia links to a very interesting description of an accidental attack to a surfer in 70's. The whale just bit once and go.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2245&dat=19960117&id=...

And, just for the nerd department, lord of the ring's orcs and orca whales share probably the same meaning. Orcus was one of the names from underworld (the hell) in the roman empire. Clever Mr. Tolkien...

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you provide an example where expanding the definition of personhood was abused as an excuse to commit atrocities?

Expanding the definition to include animals necessarily involves redefining personhood, and that's the risk. Expanding personhood doesn't necessitate removing classes of people from personhood, but allowing for its redifitinion makes it possible.

Your argument is similar to the argument of those who opposed gay marriage in that it claims that expanding something to another group will redefine said thing to the other group.

Re: Are killer whales persons?

#60
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under United States law companies are persons as well, so these definitions are a bit out of date. It's perfectly reasonable to expand the term "person" to apply to non humans, companies and orcas alike.

True, but the legal definition of a person and the dictionary definition don't have to agree, so it's important which personhood we're trying to redefine. Should orcas be legal persons? Probably not. They can't give consent and will never be able to, in principle. This is different from a mentally underdeveloped human or a human child because an orca will neither grow up to be able to give consent nor could they reac…

> because an orca will neither grow up to be able to give consent

Conjecture that I do not agree with. Orcas can definitely give consent, it depends on the situation.

> nor could they reach that capacity as a species (within human timeframes).

More conjecture with which I disagree. Orcas can talk and they can indicate consent already.

> there isn't any selection pressure guiding them in that direction.

Conjecture. Strongly disagree.

> Personally I think Sea World is criminally abusive because it is necessarily incapable of holding large water mammals like orcas in captivity in a way that minimizes suffering for them

Finally, something we agree on.

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