It always seems weird when people are talking about whether x is a "word", and at the same time changing the definition of the "word" to mean "x". Of course if we redefine the word "person" to mean something else, orcas can be considered "persons". We can even redefine it in such a way that a chair will be considered a "person" - but should we? And if, as it currently stands, we have many different definitions, and a…
Are killer whales persons?
41–50 of 65 posts
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#42I don't think that capturing killer whales is a thing we should do, but I don't like this line of reasoning: "They have big brains, complex social structures, rich emotional lives -- how can we still hold them captive?" That line of argument is based on the idea that the rights of an individual are based on the intelligence or capability of the individual. That shouldn't be the case -- if a human being has a impaired…
I think it's based on the idea that the rights of an individual are based on the intelligence or capability of the species he's part of. Thus a single human wouldn't be singled out for lacking any of these as it's a still a human, thus treated according to human rights.
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#43I have wondered about this often with cetaceans. I feel like personhood is such a human concept and completely depends on who is defining it. It calls into question, "What is personhood to begin with?" There have many documented cases of dolphins rescuing drowning human swimmers or protecting surfers from sharks. I feel like it takes a good amount of intelligence and empathy-like qualities for dolphins to be able to…
Is it possible the whales realized that by returning the pup to shore when they weren't hungry, they were ensuring a larger crop next year?
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#44Can we arrest killer whales then? Or can Orca on Orca crime be allowed?
I realize that the answer is sometimes "yes", but I don't think that crimes against humanity (orca-kind?) or rendition agreements are applicable in this case.
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#45It always seems weird when people are talking about whether x is a "word", and at the same time changing the definition of the "word" to mean "x". Of course if we redefine the word "person" to mean something else, orcas can be considered "persons". We can even redefine it in such a way that a chair will be considered a "person" - but should we? And if, as it currently stands, we have many different definitions, and a…
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#46That clickbait title though. Of course an orca is not a person; an orca is not human, which is most peoples' understanding of "person". I understand if articles might have clickbait titles, but can we give a more reasonable title on HN? Even the second part of the article title, "The more we learn about orcas, the more our assumption of innate superiority looks like a presumption" would've been more effective.
The term person has established precedent, both for humans and non-humans. For humans, the legality of abortion is often thought of in terms of the humanity of the embyro. However, the actual legal issue is whether the law extends to the embyro the right of personhood. Peter Singer has advocated both for the personhood of certain animals and the non-personhood of certain humans (including live infants below certain c…
There is no precedent for making it illegal to refuse to risk your health, well-being and bodily integrity to sustain another person with your own body. If the risk is negligible, sure, everything else would be denial of assistance -- but pregnancy (to say nothing of birth) is extremely risky as far as biological processes go.
You could argue about a voluntary pregnancy being some kind of contract that suspends your right to bodily integrity but that still wouldn't apply to unwanted pregnancies, which represent the majority of abortions.
Arguing that a foetus' personal rights are violated by early stage termination of a pregnancy is just special pleading biased by religious ideas about the inherent sanctity of life. Most nefariously, the same people who argue for the rights of a foetus also oppose the welfare that would be necessary to address the social impacts of the unwanted birth. Or to put it more hyperbolically: "A human's life is holy, until they are born".
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#47I have wondered about this often with cetaceans. I feel like personhood is such a human concept and completely depends on who is defining it. It calls into question, "What is personhood to begin with?" There have many documented cases of dolphins rescuing drowning human swimmers or protecting surfers from sharks. I feel like it takes a good amount of intelligence and empathy-like qualities for dolphins to be able to…
There's also documented cases of dolphins killing humans.
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#48"Can an animal be a person?" According to the definition, a "person" refers to a human [0][1]. Perhaps the better question is should we treat the whales better or differently based on what we learned rather than shoe-horn them into a word that literally means human. [0] Oxford English: "A human being regarded as an individual" [1] Merriam-Webster: "a human being"
Under United States law companies are persons as well, so these definitions are a bit out of date. It's perfectly reasonable to expand the term "person" to apply to non humans, companies and orcas alike.
Should orcas be legal persons? Probably not. They can't give consent and will never be able to, in principle. This is different from a mentally underdeveloped human or a human child because an orca will neither grow up to be able to give consent nor could they reach that capacity as a species (within human timeframes).
Could orcas evolve to become legal persons? Maybe, but there isn't any selection pressure guiding them in that direction.
We should however acknowledge that "personhood" is not a well-defined requirement for the rights we grant to persons. We should probably extend some of those rights to certain animals independently of whether we can consider them persons or not. They're autonomous and have some form of sentience -- it seems only fair to acknowledge that in how we treat them.
That aside, the real debate here is animal rights and what constitutes animal cruelty. Personally I think Sea World is criminally abusive because it is necessarily incapable of holding large water mammals like orcas in captivity in a way that minimizes suffering for them -- the tank size alone could not be large enough for that; the economics just wouldn't work out.
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is the question basically, is being human a necessary precondition to being a person? And assuming that it is, which humans are not persons ( otherwise human and person would just be synonymous).
That doesn't really follow. Just because human may not be a necessary precondition doesn't mean being human can't be a sufficient precondition. Consider the hypothetical definition that a person is any being that is either a human or a dolphin. Now all humans are people, but not all people are humans.
Re: Are killer whales persons?
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's also documented cases of dolphins killing humans.
I'm curious; can you point to any references?
Captive pygmy killer whales are really nasty also. They howl loudly (like wolves) and actively charge against humans when in the same pool. They need open and deep water so is understandable.
Bootlenose dolphins could hit and kill easily an human but probably only if seriously injured or restrained (or if a baby dolphin is in serious danger). Dolphins seem to be really smart and friendly even in the most dangerous situations for humans. Most are very curious with pregnant women for example. Could be really easy for the dolphin to kill the human foetus in this situation with a couple of hits of the beak but this never happens. To try to 'rape' humans is a much more frequent behaviour in male bootlenose dolphins (Not, I'm not joking).
Common dolphins probably not, their beak is too much fragile to take the risk to harm an human. A dolphin with a break mandible is a dead dolphin.
Ziphiidae probably could kill easily a human. They have the character and the strenght, although no case has been recorded I think... humans normally don't share the same space than beaked whales and its sharp and big frontal tooth. I did not advice to try to swim between two males figthing anyways.
Pygmy sperm whales are not aggresive for humans even when injured or stranded, and I'm really happy with it. They will readily defecate over you instead and I can personally assure that is a very sticky red jelly thing but you really don't die for this.