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U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

fortune.com

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Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#31
I work in the consumer device space and from what I've seen, the flexibility of in-region supply chain for components and sub-assemblies would be very difficult to match outside of China. It allows for JIT manufacturing and incredibly quick divergences from POR during development when issues occur.

However for more durable goods I could definitely see a resurgence in US manufacturing with the right investments were made in extensive semi to full automation on the design/factory side. China factories are in a tough spot in the regard since employing more people is encouraged by the government, but automation eats away at the low end positions. See Foxconn's 1 Million+ employee count [1] and recently announced slowdown of automation take over [2].

[1] http://www.foxconn.com/Files/annual_rpt_e/2014_annual_rpt_e....

[2]http://www.computerworld.com/article/2941272/emerging-techno...

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#32
post #12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming cost of living is the same in both places, which it isn't.

Speaking from a Chinese perspective, $3/hr in China today is still very low. That's like 3000 RMB for a 9-5 blue collar (which doesn't really happen as many workers work between 12-16 hours a day). But there are just so many expenses you cannot avoid while living in China as a Chinese... $3000 - $5000 is barely enough.

Wait, what. I've lived in Beijing in 2013. You can live off 3000RMB/month = 500USD/month. That's far from being rich, but also not barely survivable. Everything was cheap for me, and I'm from Poland.

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#33

Sadly this doesn't address the reason I import from China and not from the USA - where the product is likely to be of better quality - the cost of shipping. I just recently had to cancel a large order from our first USA wholesaler when we discovered that the cost to ship via DHL or FedEx would cost 500% more than the value of the items themselves. This maybe a New Zealand problem but often shipping from China is free…

Export post from China is heavily subsidised.

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you exactly suggesting everyone do? He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs. You're not offering any constructive feedback while criticizing from your pedestal of inaction. I assume you used a throwaway because you didn't want to attribute that to your personal identity. Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization, granted at the detriment of American jobs. However it f…

I agree with him. In this case, American entrepreneurs are abusing Chinese people. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that China has been criticized for a very long time over. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-ris... or even http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-st... This isn't a "well suck it up because at least you're getting paid /something/" issue. Chinese workers…

American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries.

If it weren't for American capital, and the American consumer, China would have developed drastically slower (if at all). China's GDP per capita in 1994 was ~$480. That's ~45 years after the Mao revolution.

There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. If you paid them 'first world' wages, nobody would have set up manufacturing in China to begin with; those manufacturers would have kept that manufacturing domestically or sought out another cheaper source. The sole reason China boomed the last 20 years is that they had 250 million low-wage workers available and willing to do low-cost manufacturing.

If we're talking exploitation, the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires that have gotten rich off of leveraging their own impoverished workers - they own all the factories, the real estate, et al. China's wealth inequality puts every other country to shame.

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#35

As oil and gas prices in the US reach parity with China, China remains relevant only where labor costs are a factor. As manufacturing becomes increasingly automated, Chinese factory workers (and indeed most of the world's unskilled workers) will become unemployed. That is a double edged sword....it will be great for businesses until enough people are unemployed that only a small percentage of the population can affor…

I used to have this view but it free up workers to be more educated and do less menial tasks is a counter argument.

Having an educated labor force would keep US be competitive. Unfortunately that means getting higher and higher degree.

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#36
post #33

Sadly this doesn't address the reason I import from China and not from the USA - where the product is likely to be of better quality - the cost of shipping. I just recently had to cancel a large order from our first USA wholesaler when we discovered that the cost to ship via DHL or FedEx would cost 500% more than the value of the items themselves. This maybe a New Zealand problem but often shipping from China is free…

Export post from China is heavily subsidised.

Mostly by the postal services in the recipient country actually:

"If you buy the cheap goods from abroad today, you can often get them shipped "free" around half the planet and to your home. It may be cheaper to order a remote control with batteries from China and throw the remote away, rather than going to the store and buying a pack of batteries.

That this may be a problem for local businesses is obvious, but the reason you can order extremely cheap goods from China is far more complicated than you think. Most countries in the world have actually joined forces in an international collaboration to allocate freight costs between themselves a partnership, where the importing countries eventually ended up holding the bag.

This agreement is called Universal Postal Convention, and it's important for many of us in everyday life. It is quite simple to regulate mail traffic between all the countries that have joined, not to mention how much it will cost to ship the item. The intention behind the agreement was good when it was introduced, but over a hundred years later, the social conditions changed and it helps to create distortion of competition across the world.

Universal Postal Convention was created in a completely different era than the one we are in now, namely around 1870 - at the time it was snail mail which reigned, e-mail was by no means invented and not even the largest visionary had thought of the idea of ​​sending the mail electronically.

If we go back to the time of the Convention's birth it was not so easy to send a letter abroad. Each country had to enter into their own individual agreements with every country they wanted to send mail to. If you wanted to send mail to a country who didn't have a mail agreement with your own country, you would have a problem.

The solution could then be to send the letter via a third country, which had agreements in good standing with both the country you were sending from and the country you would send to.

To calculate the postage was no trivial matter either. Here you risked the postage getting split up in multiple parts, so that the first part covered the mail crossing the border. Then the poor postal workers had to sit with price lists from other countries to calculate the rest of the postage, after which they also had to stick on a stamp for the recipient country. Should the letter go through several countries on its journey, one can only imagine how cumbersome the system was.

One particularly cumbersome system, without a doubt, and so thought the those who lived at that time too. Thus, the Universal Postal Union, UPU, established in 1874. The main pillar of this association is what we call the Universal Postal Convention.

The Universal Postal Union was a set of rules that regulated postage prices, and one of the most important rules was the various national postal service does not distinguish between mail from inland and mail from abroad. As a final pillar was the rule that the postal service in each Member State would gain the postage that was paid to ship the overseas mail.

It was the end of letters filled with stamps from many countries. The stamp of the sending country was enough to get all the way to the recipient's mailbox.

In 1947 UPU became a specialized agency within the UN, and it's currently the second oldest organization within the United Nations, surpassed only by the International Telecommunication Union - ITU. To become a member here it is a requirement that the Universal Postal Convention is enacted. In 1969 a central and important change was enacted, it introduced a so-called terminal fee, to be paid if one country mails more to a country other than what it self got in return.

This system makes it fairer for those countries that receive a lot of mail. Here in Norway we get considerably more more mail into the country, than what we send out, so this is an important factor we should return to later in this comment.

You can still send letters and mail in an easy way, anywhere in the world. The big carrot is still another. If you buy from overseas you are in fact pretty much guaranteed a relatively nice shipping price. How nice shipping price is depends a little on how things are sent.

If you order small electronics directly from China, you can get very cheaply from it. Goods are basically reasonable, and shipping charges are usually a joke. Many times you get free shipping, even if the course is baked into the price. This low shipping cost, you can thank the Universal Postal Convention for, since Norway has committed to deliver the item to you without any additional premium.

Overall, Norway recieves way more mail than it send from us. This means that Posten Norway gets more terminal charges than what we have to pay in terminal charges to other countries. The problem is that these fees are underpriced compared to what Posten Norway spends to deliver the mail. How much Posten Norway lose on these mailings, they refuse to tell:

> The details are confidential, but as a net importer of mail Posten Norway gets more from the terminal taxes than we pay for exports to others. Our distribution costs are not taken into account in this calculation. Unmet costs we have on international mail must necessarily be covered from other revenue in postal operations, said press officer at Posten Norway, Hilde Ebeltoft Skaugrud.

So far we are assured of low freight rates from abroad, but there may be changes in time. There is no denying that many countries are experiencing that the money isn't enough and quickly disappears. In a few years this may change.

> The Convention is revised every four years, next in 2016, and in this connection we discussed the changes. Posten Norway are working to achieve better alignment between terminal charges and distribution costs, Ebeltoft Skaugrud tell us.

As of today, Posten Norway gets a variety of packages and letters from abroad to be handed out. They get paid for the job, but nowhere near what the job is costing them. The cost will be subsidized by the other mail clients, those who send packages and letters in Norway.

When two countries are sending mail to each other the weight of the mail from the country that sent the least mail to the other country is counter-accounted. For all the excess the terminal fee has to be pain, which is related to the general economic situation in each country. The result is that Norway will pay a higher fee for their excess kilogram of mail than countries such as China and the United States does. The Chinese have a right to send parcels abroad for an amount considered fair in China, the problem is that the sum is terribly low in a Norwegian perspective.

In a survey made ​​by the German consulting company Wissenschaftliche Institut für Infrastructure und Kommunikationsdienste GmbH in 2011, there were several interesting findings related to terminal charges. There Norway comes out as one the biggest losers due to large net imports and high internal expenses.

The consulting company also shows that several other have also advocated for a change. The (American) Department of Justice stated, among other things, in 1990 that the terminal fees that differ from the actual cost of delivery has an ability to disrupt the competition. The European Commission said something similar in 1992, when they stated that the terminal fees should be based on what it costs to deliver the consignments in the recipient country.

In fact the Universal Postal Union itself makes a statement on the issue a few years later, in 1997; and makes it clear that terminal charges not based on the real costs within the recipient country will create incentives for trade that is not financially sustainable with the great flow across borders.

We should be very cautious about predicting anything, but we can not envisage that the current situation will continue forever. Various foreign online stores of various sizes are nearest subsidized shipping to Norway, and considering the increase in imports is probably only a matter of time before something is done. The first opportunity to make a change is 2016 and we will be surprised if it's not going to be a good deal more expensive to receive packets from the rest of the world then."

// Article from HW.no (Norway's Ars Technica) translated with Google Translate and with the language fixed manually. http://www.hardware.no/artikler/guide-verdenspostkonvensjone...

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with him. In this case, American entrepreneurs are abusing Chinese people. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that China has been criticized for a very long time over. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-ris... or even http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-st... This isn't a "well suck it up because at least you're getting paid /something/" issue. Chinese workers…

American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. If it weren't for American capital, and the American consumer, China would have developed drastically slower (if at all). China's GDP per capita in 1994 was ~$480. That's ~45 years after the Mao revolution. There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. If you paid them 'first world' wages, nobody would have set up man…

I just don't understand how anyone could be OK with /anyone/ that takes part in this process. It's not okay for the "200 Chinese billionaires" to be profiting off of abusing others, just as it is not okay for Americans to be giving money to these people.

There is a difference between being successful financially and being able to sleep well at night.

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#39

For some industries the USA is and has for some time been a bit lower cost for manufacturing than China. Labor costs are only part of the equation- you also have to take into account transportation costs, energy costs, costs of obtaining capital, etc. all weighed against political, scheduling, and quality risks. For my own industry (specialty machine vision systems) outsourcing to China is almost not worth the troubl…

outsourcing to China is almost not worth the trouble

Almost?

Re: U.S. Manufacturing costs are almost as low as China’s

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you feel pride? Seriously, 3$/h? Assumming that a large junk goes to the shop owner, that's not a lot to make each month.

What are you exactly suggesting everyone do? He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs. You're not offering any constructive feedback while criticizing from your pedestal of inaction. I assume you used a throwaway because you didn't want to attribute that to your personal identity. Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization, granted at the detriment of American jobs. However it f…

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