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Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

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Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#61
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which paints Unity as the bad guy In what way at all? Entity A doesn't want to pay entity B $X. That's the only thing the comment of mine that you quote says. There are shops around that sell quadcopters for hundreds of dollars. I want a quadcopter. I don't want to pay hundreds of dollars. Have I just painted myself as a bad guy? I repeat: the only reason my comment sounds pro-Mono is because, at neutral, it resist…

"X wants Z, but doesn't want to pay Y for Z" implies several things. Perhaps you didn't intend them. But almost every reader will make those assumptions. In particular, it sounds like Y is offering Z at a standard rate, as in "Sam wants a Chipotle burrito, but doesn't want to pay Chipotle for the burrito." Sam doesn't look good here - does Sam expect to get the burrito for free? Why does Sam think he is entitled to t…

The only thing I'm saying are very negative things towards people who read (or heard the story of) Unity's PR-level attempt to make it sound like the people behind Mono are jerks, and then bought in to it full force and now repeat the line at every opportune moment (and then some inopportune ones, too, like the comment I replied to).

What we also don't know are the terms for the first negotiation. It's as possible that Mono made one offer and Unity countered with an insultingly lower one, then Mono accepted due to being a poor position to negotiate something "reasonable", but are no longer in a position to have to accept whatever is offered, now that Xamarin is off and running.

We don't know. Hypotheses non fingo.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#62
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in both cases. There would be no Ubuntu today without Debian (although I've never installed it because I tried years ago and found it to be too difficult which is why I went with Ubuntu after becoming less than enchanted with RedHat) and really I thought case issues were a thing of the 90's, early 2000's at the latest. I've read that Debian has gotten easier to install though but I'm not sure from their web s…

I can totally sympathize, and we'd like to support every distribution. :-( But the simple statistics show that we get the most bang for our buck by supporting Ubuntu because of its desktop market share. The great thing about the Linux community is that it's full if crazy smart people who will go out of their way to make sure stuff is working on their distribution. And of course if something isn't working on your dist…

I wanted to play around with Unity several times so if I get to do that it would be fun, thanks to you and your company for looking at making it a reality.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#63
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in both cases. There would be no Ubuntu today without Debian (although I've never installed it because I tried years ago and found it to be too difficult which is why I went with Ubuntu after becoming less than enchanted with RedHat) and really I thought case issues were a thing of the 90's, early 2000's at the latest. I've read that Debian has gotten easier to install though but I'm not sure from their web s…

I can totally sympathize, and we'd like to support every distribution. :-( But the simple statistics show that we get the most bang for our buck by supporting Ubuntu because of its desktop market share. The great thing about the Linux community is that it's full if crazy smart people who will go out of their way to make sure stuff is working on their distribution. And of course if something isn't working on your dist…

I think the point that grandparent was trying to make is that with Debian support, Ubuntu support comes almost for free, and you get other Debian descendants included as well. It broadens your set of officially supported users quite a lot for a cost comparable to adding support for a new Ubuntu release.

While generally it's also true the other way around (if something is made for Ubuntu, it's likely it will work on Debian without big issues), it would be nice for companies to recognize Ubuntu's roots and make the support official.

Of course in practice the community will quickly report back to you something like "hey, change your dependency to include libjpeg-turbo8 or libturbojpeg0, in Debian there's no libjpeg-turbo8" (real example from early Steam package), however, maybe it's just me, but when I see something having official support for Ubuntu only it sounds like "we were too lazy to give it a try on other distros", while explicitly stating support for Debian-based distributions starts sounding much more professional :)

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#64
post #41
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That crap is so frustrating. Especially since you can't fix it easily when working between multiple file systems. mv: ‘test’ and ‘Test’ are the same file Thanks, mv. Brilliant.

You mean in cygwin or on ntfs or so? Because on GNU/Linux with ext4 this works: /tmp $ touch test /tmp $ mv test Test

Grandparent obviously meant case insensitive filesystems.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#65
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious. Why not go for QT for the whole GUI on all platforms?

It seems Gtk has won, why don't the QT developers and supporters move to the Gtk camp and work to make it better rather then keep QT alive which just wastes efforts.

"Gtk has won" [citation needed]

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#66
I'm scratching my head after this article, not really sure if the author really believes in what he's complaining on fully? For me, those are kinda nice "wishes", in that if they happened, the porting team would have less work to do now, sure. But, actually, especially those specific things listed - they sound to me like things, which would be unnecessarily hard and really costly things to do "in the past", assuming they were initially aiming just for Windows (and maybe OSX, don't know it well). So, like, I feel like doing them that way originally was actually a very good decision. I'm even starting to think: if the author has just those things to complain about, then maybe actually the codebase should be described as written fairly portably and future-proof...

To explain my argument, I'll try to elaborate a bit more on the points raised by the author:

1. Case sensitivity in paths.

So, as others mentioned too: on a case insensitive filesystem like Windows, you'd have no chance to verify (i.e. test) "case-sensitive-correctness" anyway. So, you'd fail on this here and there anyway. Ok, maybe using the OSX FS with case-sensitive option would be a guard. But, OTOH, I believe OSX has it case-insensitive by default anyway, no? So, by testing in case-sensitive, you're actually testing the "least used path", which sounds not so smart, actually... especially given that switching from case-sensitive to case-insenstive (i.e. the other way) has its own surprises, then...

2. No OS #ifdefs

Um;... so... like... what else to use instead?...

3. "Assumptions":

3.1. Compilers.

This point seems actually to be more "no C++11". OK; yeah; sure; but remember: then you'll get maimed for being backwards, "corporate-ish", you'll get no "smart young hackers", people will get more frustrated...

Not that you'd really have a good alternative to C++ (Java/Python need huge and messy runtime env; and if you need performance of C++, you need performance of C++; if you started now, you could maybe at least try using Go as a kinda compromise, but depends on your actual needs).

You know, whichever way you choose, you have pros and cons. And, supposedly, some time ago when the decision was made, the pros were actually outweighing the cons; so, it wouldn't sound so smart to me to choose otherwise...

3.2. & 3.3. "Assumptions about [GUI]"

Sorry to say, but: GUIs are just not portable. Every GUI environment has different "idioms", "interface guidelines", etc. Windows has different. OSX has different. Linux has different. Heck, different versions of the OSes have them different! On Linux, even in the same "OS version" (um, distro? kernel?) you have multiple "desktop environments" with different widgets, layouts, etc (KDE, Gnome, ...). Conversely, on Windows, Microsoft likes to sometimes pull you in multiple directions at the same time too, e.g. when new MS Office introduces new widgets, or new Explorer does the same, or you have Metro+classic, or whatever. Dunno about OSX; I dare suppose it's not all roses there either.

I seem to believe now, that if you want to have a cross-platform app with a GUI, you should really write the GUI for each platform from scratch (only trying to reuse some parts). Or, consciously break with staying consistent with any OS interface guidelines.

As to "copy & paste": on Linux it has actually totally different underlying mechanism(s) than on Windows. So, you probably have to rewrite even low level parts of it very differently. Not just menu entries.

So - I don't really see what's there to complain on. The app was written for some 2 OSes; now guys port it to a third one; awesome! just, sorry, you know, there's gonna be some work needed in order to complete that.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#67
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in both cases. There would be no Ubuntu today without Debian (although I've never installed it because I tried years ago and found it to be too difficult which is why I went with Ubuntu after becoming less than enchanted with RedHat) and really I thought case issues were a thing of the 90's, early 2000's at the latest. I've read that Debian has gotten easier to install though but I'm not sure from their web s…

I can totally sympathize, and we'd like to support every distribution. :-( But the simple statistics show that we get the most bang for our buck by supporting Ubuntu because of its desktop market share. The great thing about the Linux community is that it's full if crazy smart people who will go out of their way to make sure stuff is working on their distribution. And of course if something isn't working on your dist…

You haven't been asked to support every distribution, just Debian, and possibly Ubuntu. Please pay attention to this advice. Supporting Debian practically gets you Ubuntu support for free, as well as a number of other popular distributions.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#68
post #60
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems Gtk has won, why don't the QT developers and supporters move to the Gtk camp and work to make it better rather then keep QT alive which just wastes efforts.

Because for professional development, there's really no comparison; Qt is on a different level from GTK entirely. I just did a keyword search on Monster India - Qt: 69 jobs, GTK: 3 jobs.

Yeah, just about the only reasons to use GTK+ in new projects are the plain C API and slightly better bindings. Qt bindings support deteriorated a little from Qt 4 to Qt 5 (python is there but still no java bindings as far as I can tell), whereas GTK+ isn't expanding in features so it doesn't get to have such problems.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#69
post #66

I'm scratching my head after this article, not really sure if the author really believes in what he's complaining on fully? For me, those are kinda nice "wishes", in that if they happened, the porting team would have less work to do now, sure. But, actually, especially those specific things listed - they sound to me like things, which would be unnecessarily hard and really costly things to do "in the past", assuming…

> not really sure if the author really believes in what he's complaining on fully

The author is a lady.

Re: Porting the Unity Editor to Linux: Stuff I Wish We’d Done Then

#70
post #26

Wow, I wouldn't have thought that folks would be sloppy about case, but I guess it makes sense if all one's used to is a case-insensitive system. > Same policy as with our runtime; in order to keep our own sanity, we will officially support Ubuntu Linux. … > Installer will (most likely – it’s one of the things we didn’t do yet) just be a .deb package. I really wish folks would support Debian first, and let Ubuntu sup…

If they already have a build system set up, it's probably exceedingly trivial to build .deb package for Debian and Ubuntu, if such a thing is even required.

That said, the reason why they support Ubuntu is that it provides static targets. 12.04 will be supported until late 2017, which means that they users two years from now can install a .deb built today. Likewise, supporting 14.04 means .deb packages will work until late 2019. Especially for companies that want to develop on Linux, there's a huge benefit in first-party support from your vendor for the next four years.

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