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Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

nytimes.com

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Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#11

Post by guard-of-terra »

linschn wrote: post #8

The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine is that the brain does not implement an algorithm, with one input, some processing steps, and one output. Instead, it processes information as it comes, this information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input. Short-circuits everywhere, no clo…

'information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input"

Computers do this all the time. Simplest example is "cancel" button everywhere.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#12

Post by Terr_ »

johansch wrote: post #10
return0 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In academic circles most of it comes from philosophers of mind, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Who in their right mind would go to philosophers to get an understanding on how the human brain works at a physical level? Why not go to your priest instead? Same level of understanding.

Perhaps less: Priests may have more direct experience with a variety of minds :p

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#13

Post by electrograv »

linschn wrote: post #8

The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine is that the brain does not implement an algorithm, with one input, some processing steps, and one output. Instead, it processes information as it comes, this information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input. Short-circuits everywhere, no clo…

> The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine

I'm confused... is the counter-argument AGAINST the brain being BEYOND a Turing machine (if I am to interpret your sentence literally)?

Or by this double negative do you actually mean the counter argument is AGAINST the brain being ONLY a Turing machine? (Because that's what the rest of your post sounds like.)

> and the output partly loops back to the input.

So? Turing machines have no issues with feedback loops; what would lead you to think they do?

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#14

Post by linschn »

themgt wrote: post #9

I think the key fail is hidden beneath this statement, 'many “digital” computer switches are built out of analog components and processes'. In fact obviously, all computers are built out of analog components, in the sense that the entire universe is analog. However, this is the problem. Computers are designed to interpret or translate the messy analog world where nothing is exactly 1 or 0, into a precise, determinist…

You can approximate any analog value to arbitrary precision using a (by nature binary) Turing Machine, therefore you can bring the loss of information as low as needed.

The question is whether the brain offers a more complete framework than all the models of computation we know today (which are equivalent to one another). To put it another way : is there a function that the brain can compute that a Turing Machine cannot. We know of no such function now, but have ruled out yet that there is none, although most computer scientist agree with the Church-Turing hypothesis.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#15

Post by Osmium »

johansch wrote: post #10
return0 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In academic circles most of it comes from philosophers of mind, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

Who in their right mind would go to philosophers to get an understanding on how the human brain works at a physical level? Why not go to your priest instead? Same level of understanding.

I think that's somewhat unfair to philosophers. Besides the fact that science grew out of philosophy, even today philosophers are very good at defining problems and finding logical inconsistencies. As a scientist, that seems very useful indeed. To understand the brain on a "physical level", we have to know what questions we're asking first.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#16

Post by linschn »

electrograv wrote: post #13
linschn wrote: post #8

The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine is that the brain does not implement an algorithm, with one input, some processing steps, and one output. Instead, it processes information as it comes, this information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input. Short-circuits everywhere, no clo…

> The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine I'm confused... is the counter-argument AGAINST the brain being BEYOND a Turing machine (if I am to interpret your sentence literally)? Or by this double negative do you actually mean the counter argument is AGAINST the brain being ONLY a Turing machine? (Because that's what the rest of your post so…

The counter argument to the CT hypothesis, i.e. the argument against, sorry for my ambiguous phrasing.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#17

Post by coldtea »

I find the metaphor bad.

My brain might work like a computer (computation et al), but the word computer evokes actual existing computers to a layman -- and my brain doesn't have a von neumann architecture, nor does it run something similar to our software.

A neural network does computation of course, but we wouldn't call it a "computer" in the sense we use the word when dealing with, well, computers.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#18

Post by coldtea »

themgt wrote: post #9

I think the key fail is hidden beneath this statement, 'many “digital” computer switches are built out of analog components and processes'. In fact obviously, all computers are built out of analog components, in the sense that the entire universe is analog. However, this is the problem. Computers are designed to interpret or translate the messy analog world where nothing is exactly 1 or 0, into a precise, determinist…

>in the sense that the entire universe is analog.

Citation needed.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#19

Post by nirai »

linschn wrote: post #8

The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine is that the brain does not implement an algorithm, with one input, some processing steps, and one output. Instead, it processes information as it comes, this information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input. Short-circuits everywhere, no clo…

I'm a dualist but for the sake of argument, one approach is to claim that however the brain functions, it should be explainable by physics, and if physics is computable, then it should in principle be simulable by a Turing Machine.

Re: Face It, Your Brain Is a Computer

#20

Post by linschn »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #11
linschn wrote: post #8

The only serious counter-argument I've heard against the hypothesis that the brain goes further than a Turing machine is that the brain does not implement an algorithm, with one input, some processing steps, and one output. Instead, it processes information as it comes, this information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input. Short-circuits everywhere, no clo…

'information comes during the processing of previous information and the output partly loops back to the input" Computers do this all the time. Simplest example is "cancel" button everywhere.

The point is that out definition of the computability of a function is too narrow, and does not take into account the real-time all connected nature of the computation the brain does.

Therefore, we lack formal way of satisfactorily compare the brain to a Turing Machine.

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