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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#131

Post by WalterSear »

ovi256 wrote: post #47
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

Talking about a hobby as if you still do it, in order to get the job and provide for your family, is not a lie anyone sane would say matters. Next time, don't sweat it.

I guess I'm insane, then.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#132

Post by shaftoe »

ExpiredLink wrote: post #104
rayiner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the hobbies question in interviews. I work 60 hours a week and have a toddler. My hobby is sleeping. What the hell else else do you want from me?

I have a bike which I rarely ride. My interview hobby is cycling (reading books also works). Silly questions deserve silly answers.

I use hiking and reading.

This is a lot easier to explain to a stranger who forming a judgement than "in the rare moments I'm not watching my kids, working, cleaning, or sleeping, I like to go shoot guns that I built."

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#133

Post by WalterSear »

joesmo wrote: post #95

"Cultural fit" is just another form of discrimination, a currently legal alternative to racism, sexism, and other forms of illegal discrimination in the US to keep the "unliked" and "unwanted" out of jobs. The author acknowledges this, yet still sees fit to add advice for using cultural fit; that weakens the article a bit, but not much. The reality is "cultural fit" should never be used to make decisions. It is never…

Funny. It's the main thing I look for when I'm interveiwing companies that I'm looking to work for.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#134

Post by thenerdfiles »

I'm often hired exactly because I do not "fit" within the culture, but because I am apparently African American, it becomes important to trial a litmus test.

I think "culture fit" is generally opportunity for both sides to determine if their brands of humor are compatible.

If you cannot laugh with your coworkers, why work there?

A large part of the "human-centric" modality of web design, for instance, involves writing less code and solving human needs. If you do not have hobbies, etc., why participate in what is inherently a social activity? You are writing code for humans, and humans are likely those wherein you will craft and discover solutions.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#135

Post by dvirsky »

rev_bird wrote: post #75
dvirsky wrote: post #36

I think the key is to define within the company, what the cultural values are, and then talk about how to check if a person is aligned with them or not. At the company I work for, we value creativity, independence and taking ownership and responsibility of one's work. It sounds generic but it's not - people who like structured workplaces and process, just wither and don't succeed. So we try to assess that in intervie…

This strikes me as striving for "cultural fit" at a company that actually knows what its culture is, or at least what it wants its culture to be. That could genuinely help -- but the actual list seems like the important part. Without the list, it's just finding somebody everyone wants to be friends with.

Yep, I guess finding someone everyone likes and is similar socially to the team - is a rough approximation, before you defined what your culture actually is or should be.

BTW when we sat down and defined it, we tried conveying this to the whole team because not everyone was aligned with those values. One or two people actually came forward after that in private, and said something like "I get what you want from the team, I don't think I can find myself in this culture, and I think it's better for both sides that I leave". I have huge respect for that.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#136

Post by jarjoura »

arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

Not to sound insulting, though this might be, but without knowing more details I'm going to assume you're failing at the soft interview questions. In an industry where creativity is just as important as engineering knowledge, it's absolutely critical that you nail your soft interview questions.

Don't be afraid or insulted by them, OWN them. Spend time this weekend thinking about what exactly your hobbies are. You definitely have them, even if it's spending time cleaning up baby mess. Think about things that bring a smile to your face and can project to others what your passions are in life.

Never lie and it bothers me that some replies below mention that as an option. However, do MARKET yourself.

The reason these interviewers are mentioning craft-beer to you is because they're trying to get inside your head and see what makes you tick. Beer is an easy way in SF to connect with a lot of people. So yea, no one cares you don't like beer, and I know plenty of people don't drink at all. I promise that that's not why you're not getting an offer. :)

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#137

Post by firstworldman »

informatimago wrote: post #90
xaybey wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand not drinking and not playing video games, but saying that you have no hobbies would be pretty weird in an interview. They're just trying to get to know you. Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot.

Distinguishes you from a robot, WHEN? After the 80 hours a week spent at work, 56 hours a week spent sleeping (going to work while sleep deprived is like going to work drunk, so they do expect you to sleep!), 3.5 hours a week spent showering (and they do expect you to come to work clean, wonder why), 10 hours a week spent in commuting to work, 7 hours a week spent on feeding yourself (and they do expect you to eat so…

If these are honestly the amounts of time you devote to these things, then you need to make a big change. If you're working 80 hours per week and can't afford to live closer to work, you're working the wrong job. Unless you're a founder (and really, even then it should be temporary), 80 hours is an unreasonable expectation from management. Showering shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. Groceries shouldn't take 4 hours per week to buy. Conversely, you should probably spend more than 7 hours per week eating, and hopefully with other people who you care about. You could easily free up ~40 hours to spend time with your friends and family or developing a hobby. It would be good for your long term health and happiness too.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#138

Post by grkvlt »

kentt wrote: post #115
notNow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

To add to the list of reasons someone would not drink: depression. Most Americans will suffer depression at sometime and alcohol often works against recovery. You definitely don't want to attmept to bring up mental illness in an interview.

Is it illegal to discriminate on mental health grounds? I wonder if it comes under the disabilites laws in the US?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#139

Post by srj »

jrs235 wrote: post #63
mreiland wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I've always believes that there are times when you find yourself in a place you shouldn't be in. It isn't their fault and it isn't your fault, just different people who don't mesh and it's best to admit to it and walk away. The cultural fit thing can be important in that a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group, to the point of people leaving due to getting such a negative view of management/busi…

> a negative nancy can seriously cause problems in a group I consider a negative Nate an attitude issue not a cultural fit issue. If I picked up on a negative attitude during ht interview, the candidate probably won't be offered the position.

How is a person's attitude not relevant to culture? Change everyone's attitude in the company: has the culture not changed?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#140

Post by grkvlt »

ta92929 wrote: post #45
raindev wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the issue is as simple as that. Here is more on the topic: https://subfictional.com/2012/07/02/language-matters-stop-us...

The strangest part of that article is this: I understand how ingrained the “guys” habit might be for some of you. It was for me. After several months of concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on oc- casion. So even the author herself used the word with completely gender neutral intent, but then she insists that others can't. It's like she's looking for reasons to be offended.

Not really. She is conciously trying not to use it, and admits to accidentally slipping up when she reverts to unconciously choosing biased terms. She seems to want others to do the same thing, and think about the words they are using, and their potential impact, which is a Good Thing generally.
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