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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#111

Post by tsmith »

Hiring for cultural fit is just laziness, and interviewers should stop using it as a "metric".

Assessing for ability is extremely difficult - in the case of programming positions, technical interview processes either suffer from a large number of false negatives (e.g. the "Google filter") or a large number of false positives (e.g. "this person doesn't know how to write a for loop; how did they get hired?").

Per the article, most interviewers interpret "cultural fit" as "personal fit" - how well do you like the interviewee? The example heuristics (going out for a beer with the candidate, spending a snowy night in an airport together, etc) have very little to do with company culture and very much to do with answering the question: "Do I like this person?".

Any 4 year old can tell when they like somebody. It's one of the easiest things in the world for a human being to assess.

Technical ability, on the other hand, is one of the hardest things in the world for human beings to asses, at least in the context of an interview. Assessing for "cultural fit" - which on the face of it makes perfect sense as a hiring metric - devolves into a way to avoid doing something difficult (assess technical ability) by doing something easy (assess personal affinity).

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#112

Post by EliRivers »

earljwagner wrote: post #76
EliRivers wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When interviewing, one of things I deliberately look for is people who are not like the current team. People who are not a "cultural fit", whatever that even means. I need people with different ideas, different experience; people who will approach the problems in a different way, fill in the blind spots and vulnerabilities the current team has. There's a trade-off to be made, sure, but professional adults can work to…

What dimensions of difference do you look for?

Some examples off the top of my head:

Desktop applications experience vs. embedded software experience

(I say "vs"; I don't mean they're opposed, but that someone with a lot of experience in one of those will think about things in a different way to someone with experience in the other; it's a spectrum along such a dimension).

Pure software experience vs. designer/seller of hardware+software

Computer Science degree vs. other technical degree (Maths, Physics, Engineering)

Technical degree vs. arts degree

Degree vs. on-the-job/self-taught

Experience in big megacorps vs. experience in small companies

Experience in established companies vs. experience in new businesses or startups

Experienced vs. inexperienced (this one is more broadly "life " experience, and it could roughly translate to older vs. younger, but it's not quite that simple)

Consumer apps experience vs. business-to-business

Mobile devices experience vs. supercomputer number-crunching

And so on. More, I expect.

So, for example, if I had a team of Computer Science graduates, I might wonder if they're all thinking about problems through the lens of their classes on algorithms and data-structures and so forth, and maybe a mathematician would think about these same problems in a different way.

If I had a team with a lot of people from global defence industry megacorps used to spending a decade on a project and ensuring that all reqts are solid up front, I might think that someone from a startup might bring a different approach to the software life-cycle (and, of course, vice-versa).

Adding another person to a team who thinks the same just gives me more of the same. If I want to make fewer mistakes and have more novel ideas, I need to fill in gaps. Not every gap, and there's always a balance, but a professional adult can work effectively with people who are not the same as them. I'm not hiring in the hopes of creating a group of people who really like each other.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#113

Post by johngalt »

notNow wrote: post #93
mc32 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people have alcohol allergies, wheat allergies, some people don't enjoy the taste and some don't drink for health reasons. There are probably other reasons too, including some religious. But don't underestimate people's odd personality showing thru after drinking. Never the less, I can't fathom drinking being the necessary glue to keep a team cohesive.

Drinking beer should not be the glue to any team. It is not about drinking alcohol either. It's about smoking out unfit candidates when it is inexpensive to do so and religious fanatics/fundies come at the very top of the list. The skills and expertise of a candidate have to be pretty convincing for me to overlook the fundamentalism part and the troubles that they might bring onboard.

Do you realize it is you being the bigot here?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#114

Post by DanBC »

notNow wrote: post #87
mgkimsal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP, but I don't drink alcohol in social situations much - typically not as a lunch beverage with team mates - for 1 primary reason: I don't like the taste. I have no moral objections against a glass of beer or wine with a meal, and occasionally will have a glass of wine with a dinner (usually not, because I'm normally driving somewhere as well). I've done the 'go to lunch' during an interview, and beer came u…

If you don't like the taste of beer or alcoholic beverages for the matter is fine with me and I'd like to clarify that I don't have prob either with the religious cop-out but you'll have to forgive me if I get you under more scrutiny just to ensure that you fit well within the inclusive environment because from my experience religious people esp. from certain backgrounds (let's stick with PC for now not to inflame th…

I'm always surprised when people admit to illegal hiring practice in a public forum.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#115

Post by kentt »

notNow wrote: post #58
arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

May I ask what's your objection to drinking beer? The reason I ask because some people abstain for religious reasons and I seriously don't relish the company of fundie folks around me because from experience over time they won't settle for exercising just their own rights but till they impose or restrict other people's rights or make them at least feel very uncomfortable in the workplace.

To add to the list of reasons someone would not drink: depression. Most Americans will suffer depression at sometime and alcohol often works against recovery. You definitely don't want to attmept to bring up mental illness in an interview.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#116

Post by MarcusVorenus »

joesmo wrote: post #95

"Cultural fit" is just another form of discrimination, a currently legal alternative to racism, sexism, and other forms of illegal discrimination in the US to keep the "unliked" and "unwanted" out of jobs. The author acknowledges this, yet still sees fit to add advice for using cultural fit; that weakens the article a bit, but not much. The reality is "cultural fit" should never be used to make decisions. It is never…

Cultural fit can definitely impact performance. Imagine a luddite working for a biotechnology company, or an anarchist working for the government, or a muslim working for an atheist non-profit. These people would never find the motivation to perform better than the absolute minimum required to keep their jobs because their goals and the goals of the organization are complete opposites. They could even go as far as sabotaging the performance of others by creating a toxic work environment.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#117

Post by xaybey »

spacemanmatt wrote: post #102
xaybey wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand not drinking and not playing video games, but saying that you have no hobbies would be pretty weird in an interview. They're just trying to get to know you. Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot.

I have a life that I put down hobbies for. It would be unfair to call my kids, my love life, social events with friends, and keeping up with my necessary life (bills, laundry, groceries, etc.) hobbies. But that's all I have time for, after I hold down a regular job. It's just plain ignorant for younger teams to expect a rockstar in AND out of the office.

Actually, I think those would be acceptable answers. As a young person who works with older coworkers, I'm perfectly willing to talk to you about your kids or buying groceries. I just want to relate to you in a conversation that isn't about work.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#118

Post by Animats »

arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

If beer is an interview subject, the "brogrammer" culture has gotten out of hand. Now what, the three-martini lunch of the 1950s? (See "Mad Men".) No wonder we see so much crap code.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#119

Post by notNow »

johngalt wrote: post #113
notNow wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drinking beer should not be the glue to any team. It is not about drinking alcohol either. It's about smoking out unfit candidates when it is inexpensive to do so and religious fanatics/fundies come at the very top of the list. The skills and expertise of a candidate have to be pretty convincing for me to overlook the fundamentalism part and the troubles that they might bring onboard.

Do you realize it is you being the bigot here?

Because I don't want to hire religious fanatics in where I work or bigot means that I don't share the same opinion as yours?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#120

Post by npinguy »

informatimago wrote: post #90
xaybey wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand not drinking and not playing video games, but saying that you have no hobbies would be pretty weird in an interview. They're just trying to get to know you. Hopefully you follow it up with some personal detail that distinguishes you from a robot.

Distinguishes you from a robot, WHEN? After the 80 hours a week spent at work, 56 hours a week spent sleeping (going to work while sleep deprived is like going to work drunk, so they do expect you to sleep!), 3.5 hours a week spent showering (and they do expect you to come to work clean, wonder why), 10 hours a week spent in commuting to work, 7 hours a week spent on feeding yourself (and they do expect you to eat so…

Let's start from 80 hours a week spent at work. Red flag #1. Don't know why you would assume that's necessary

3.5 hours/week showering. Red flag #2. Even if you shower every single day, if you're spending 30 minutes in the shower each time you might as well call it a hobby. Unless you've got long luxurious hair, you should be able to get everything done in 10 minutes.

10 hours commuting, so 1 hour each way? #3 How much do you value your time? Clearly if you can't think of a hobby, not very much. If you did, you'd pay extra to not waste 2 hours every day wasted. But wait...why are you wasting that time? Can you read? Listen to audio books? Work on a side project? Even day dream and think? If you have to drive, can you switch from driving to motorcycling, and make that a hobby?

It sounds like you WANT to throw yourself into work, and spend all your energy and time into it as an excuse for lacking the ability to become a fully developed multi-faceted human being. And that is on you, not on your employer.

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