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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#41

Post by EliRivers »

lordnacho wrote: post #31
EliRivers wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any skill. There are bio-hackers. Lock-hackers. Engine-hackers. Clothing-hackers. On and on and on. The skill has become irrelevant. Just any skill. Attitude and style is now what makes it "hacker".

Must be a changing thing. I've always thought "hacker" without qualifiers meant "person who can code".

At risk of showing my age, it never meant that; or at least, if that's what it means now, it's a very modern interpretation and the word has basically become meaningless.

I've got a copy of Levy's "Hackers" on my desk, printed in 1984. The first chapter opens in the late fifties (i.e. almost sixty years ago) in the MIT model railway club.

"Hackers" are (or at least, were) people who solved problems in a particular way. A good hack involved some clever dodge around a limitation, or some new creative technical thinking to achieve a task. In code terms, someone might find a way round a memory limitation by reusing something in a non-standard way, or perhaps someone might hide some extra calculation in the fly-back time of a CRT monitor. Hacks show a knowledge and understanding beyond the standard methods, a knowledge and understanding often gathered through exploring deeply and chasing personal itches; creativity based on a more thorough understanding than just knowing the syntax. The skill good hackers tended to have was just a base knowledge that allowed their creativity to fly; sometimes someone would churn out a creative, non-standard solution purely because they didn't have the skill needed, and didn't know the elegant standard method.

A "person who can code" is not a hacker (under the traditional definition, at least). That's simply a person who can code. Some of the finest programmers are not hackers. Some of the finest hackers are not outstanding programmers. Yes, there's a broad correlation; good hackers tend to be good programmers (although certainly not the other way around), but the two terms are by no means synonymous.

If you've not read Levy's "Hackers", it's a good read.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#42

Post by zo1 »

paragpatelone wrote: post #21

Companies have to be very careful how they define cultural fit. If they leave it open, it can impart personal bias that are not at all beneficial to the company. Maybe "value fit" should be used instead of cultural fit. Do your values align with the core values of the company. The top NYTimes comment below illustrates some of the warts of a "cultural fit". "Hiring managers who would never in a million years describe…

And this company that didn't hire the most-competent candidate: Would you say that they are now some how measurably worse-off within the market? At the very least, in relation to a potential competitor that did snag up that candidate?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#44

Post by ak39 »

scrrr wrote: post #20

Best reason to visit a top school. So you become more similar to the people running the country.

Ouch.

Even if what you say could be true, is it a good thing to send our kids to institutions of learning so that they can become arse-licking sycophants? Is that even a conscious decision in parenting?

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#45

Post by ta92929 »

raindev wrote: post #27
chapium wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends on context. "I'm going to go hang out with the guys." yes, exclusive. "Hey guys, I'm going to work." not exclusive. Try focusing on the meaning being conveyed and not the glyphs representing it.

I don't think the issue is as simple as that. Here is more on the topic: https://subfictional.com/2012/07/02/language-matters-stop-us...

The strangest part of that article is this:

  I understand how ingrained the “guys” habit might be for 
  some of you. It was for me. After several months of 
  concerted, conscious effort, I still slip and say it on oc-
  casion.
So even the author herself used the word with completely gender neutral intent, but then she insists that others can't. It's like she's looking for reasons to be offended.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#46

Post by andrewchoi »

ak39 wrote: post #44
scrrr wrote: post #20

Best reason to visit a top school. So you become more similar to the people running the country.

Ouch. Even if what you say could be true, is it a good thing to send our kids to institutions of learning so that they can become arse-licking sycophants? Is that even a conscious decision in parenting?

Speaking as a lower-income student who went to an Ivy League university, appearing more similar to those in power is an entirely different thing than becoming an "arse-licking sycophant".

I'd argue that going to a so-called "elite" institution is more akin to learning a language by immersion.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#47

Post by ovi256 »

arenaninja wrote: post #24

The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebro…

Talking about a hobby as if you still do it, in order to get the job and provide for your family, is not a lie anyone sane would say matters. Next time, don't sweat it.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#48

Post by EliRivers »

DevPad wrote: post #38
lordnacho wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Be a hacker" is not cultural though. It's skill. He's saying they are just using skill as a criterion.

For me "Be a hacker" is kind of innovative & startupish spirit, the way of life and doing things different, open-mindness, never ending learning.

Well then please, say that. You'll note in the comments below that there's someone who defines "hacker" as "person who can code".

If what you seek is open-mindedness to new ways of thinking and new ways of doing things, a positive attitude to learning, a desire to explore the software and hardware beyond the level purely necessary to meet the requirements, then say all these things so people know what you mean (and so that you do get applications from people with two decades of experience applying all these values to their life - some of those applicants can blow you away, if you can look past the smart suit; twenty years as a working adult with an attitude of never-ending learning can create some seriously skilled people).

You started your definition with "For me"; clearly, you already know that this is your definition. I bet there are people you work with who actually have a different definition but because you all use the same word, you don't realise it (cf. the common political phrases "our common values" and "hard-working families" - everyone has a personal definition of this that they simply project onto the phrase).

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#49

Post by ak39 »

zo1 wrote: post #42
paragpatelone wrote: post #21

Companies have to be very careful how they define cultural fit. If they leave it open, it can impart personal bias that are not at all beneficial to the company. Maybe "value fit" should be used instead of cultural fit. Do your values align with the core values of the company. The top NYTimes comment below illustrates some of the warts of a "cultural fit". "Hiring managers who would never in a million years describe…

And this company that didn't hire the most-competent candidate: Would you say that they are now some how measurably worse-off within the market? At the very least, in relation to a potential competitor that did snag up that candidate?

If you're asking whether they "learnt" their lesson ... I very much doubt that cultures that entrench such biases are ever shaken up to reconsider the harmful effects (financial or otherwise) of their adopted attitudes. Don't underestimate the power of the "backfire effect" on the minds of middle-managers who don't want to be revealed as having made mistakes.

It takes a bold and courageous leader to admit mistakes in the corporate environment. Or a stupid one.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#50

Post by BurningFrog »

ak39 wrote: post #44
scrrr wrote: post #20

Best reason to visit a top school. So you become more similar to the people running the country.

Ouch. Even if what you say could be true, is it a good thing to send our kids to institutions of learning so that they can become arse-licking sycophants? Is that even a conscious decision in parenting?

You send the kids to Stanford so their ares will be the ones licked by syciphants.
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