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Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

nytimes.com

21–30 of 177 posts

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#21
Companies have to be very careful how they define cultural fit. If they leave it open, it can impart personal bias that are not at all beneficial to the company.

Maybe "value fit" should be used instead of cultural fit. Do your values align with the core values of the company.

The top NYTimes comment below illustrates some of the warts of a "cultural fit".

"Hiring managers who would never in a million years describe themselves or even privately consider themselves to be racist or sexist or ageist commonly use cultural-fit criteria to perpetrate racism, sexism, or agism in the workplace. I was recently in a meeting with two other managers to compare notes on a group of candidates whom we'd all just interviewed for a mid-level job. My top pick was a supremely well-qualified 45-year-old black woman who outscored all the other candidates on the skills test, was the only one to arrive on time for the interview, and was the only one who dressed professionally for the interview. It's a corporate job in Midtown. She was poised, amiable, and direct during my conversation with her, asked well-informed questions about the work and the company, and she was also the only candidate who sent a thank you letter after the interview. The other two hiring managers - both of whom, incidentally, were white women who were wearing Black Lives Matter pins - didn't think my top candidate "would be a good fit" or "feel comfortable." We hired a young white guy for the gig. He fits in the gang really well at happy hour, but his job performance is extremely poor. My two managerial colleagues have scheduled a meeting for next week to discuss what we're going to do about him. The good candidate is working for someone else now."

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our "cultural fit" was just about: Be a Hacker. Why did you put "cultural fit" in quotes? Your criterion is just as poorly defined as everyone else's "cultural fit" criteria and, just like theirs, acts as a way to simply exclude people because they're not like you.

"Be a hacker" is not cultural though. It's skill. He's saying they are just using skill as a criterion.

Being a hacker is very cultural. From the Jargon File:

"Except in some relatively minor respects such as slang vocabulary, hackers don't get to be the way they are by imitating each other. Rather, it seems to be the case that the combination of personality traits that makes a hacker so conditions one's outlook on life that one tends to end up being like other hackers whether one wants to or not (much as bizarrely detailed similarities in behavior and preferences are found in genetic twins raised separately)."

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Be a hacker" is not cultural though. It's skill. He's saying they are just using skill as a criterion.

WTF are you talking about? "Hacker" is entirely cultural. It was in its infancy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_(programmer_subculture) ) and it is now. Part of it's current culture is the pretence that it's all about skill; it's not. The completely lacking in skill won't get recognised as part of it, but it's attitude and style that buys admission to that club. These days, software places that are looking for…

A subculture that requires you to have a specific skill...

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#24
The article is spot on. In tech, cultural fit means one of several things. Some time ago at a company, we were considering candidates when the most senior software developer left. We went through two weeks of interviews, and I recommended we go with the strongest technical candidate because his experience was very obvious. The employer flat out said that he wouldn't fit because he was too old. When I raised my eyebrows he immediately backtracked to say that he meant that the culture was so different, I got out of there as soon as I could. The guy that was eventually hired because he was 'nice' even though his technical skills were weak was fired six weeks into the job and left a mess that took six full days to 'fix', until we discovered the changes he had made to how things were stored in the database without considering the full implications.

I've also had it happen to me that I pass every technical interview, and then when I meet the team, we'll go for lunch and they'll order beer and I get an orange juice. Drinking comes up as a subject and since I don't drink alcohol my lack of craft beer knowledge somehow becomes the subject of my interview. Needless to say, I've always been rejected at these jobs. Another one is hobbies. I've a family and my commute is LONG, to the point that I don't even play PC games anymore. Hobbies come up, I have none, and I have no intention of lying to get the job. I've learned since that these are companies I don't want to work for. I've gotten along with everyone at every job I've had, so I'm not intimidated by these, but every one I've had has been utterly pointless.

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF are you talking about? "Hacker" is entirely cultural. It was in its infancy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_(programmer_subculture) ) and it is now. Part of it's current culture is the pretence that it's all about skill; it's not. The completely lacking in skill won't get recognised as part of it, but it's attitude and style that buys admission to that club. These days, software places that are looking for…

A subculture that requires you to have a specific skill...

Any skill. There are bio-hackers. Lock-hackers. Engine-hackers. Clothing-hackers. On and on and on. The skill has become irrelevant. Just any skill. Attitude and style is now what makes it "hacker".

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#27
post #19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Guys" is an exclusive label.

It all depends on context. "I'm going to go hang out with the guys." yes, exclusive. "Hey guys, I'm going to work." not exclusive. Try focusing on the meaning being conveyed and not the glyphs representing it.

I don't think the issue is as simple as that. Here is more on the topic: https://subfictional.com/2012/07/02/language-matters-stop-us...

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Be a hacker" is not cultural though. It's skill. He's saying they are just using skill as a criterion.

WTF are you talking about? "Hacker" is entirely cultural. It was in its infancy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_(programmer_subculture) ) and it is now. Part of it's current culture is the pretence that it's all about skill; it's not. The completely lacking in skill won't get recognised as part of it, but it's attitude and style that buys admission to that club. These days, software places that are looking for…

You seem to be confusing "hacker" with "hipster".

Re: Guess Who Doesn’t Fit in at Work

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF are you talking about? "Hacker" is entirely cultural. It was in its infancy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_(programmer_subculture) ) and it is now. Part of it's current culture is the pretence that it's all about skill; it's not. The completely lacking in skill won't get recognised as part of it, but it's attitude and style that buys admission to that club. These days, software places that are looking for…

You seem to be confusing "hacker" with "hipster".

It wasn't me who pushed those two words so close together. I sometimes wonder when those who were known as "hackers" back when it meant something will find a new word, but then I remember that they tend to love word games and will never decide on anything, and they've got better things to do with their time anyway.
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