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The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

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Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#121

Post by unabst »

anovikov wrote: post #102

It doesn't seem to have much to do with the eldery age, or even (physical) sickness. None of the people described have been at very old age, or terminally sick. This is just an illustration of how limited is society based on collectivism, obedience and hard work. It helped them out a great lot in the industrial age, and even then made many of them mentally broken, or outright sick, and completely stopped working in t…

> how limited is society based on collectivism, obedience and hard work.

So you are implying a society based on independence, rebellion, and slacking would do better at treating its elderly?

Whether a culture cares for its elders only has to do whether they care for their elders, and in Japan they do. Making any other association is racism.

The fact is only because they care have they associated a dreadful term "lonely death" that anyone can relate with and fear, and have made it the center of social debate.

The fact is the US doesn't talk about this problem. They don't even have a word for it. But statistically more seniors live alone at 28% vs 20%.

In fact, I don't know of a culture that cares more for their elderly than Japan. They care so much that the way they've highlighted the problem has made western headlines. If that isn't proactivism at its finest, I do not know what is.

They're even voluntarily combing neighborhoods to identify elders living alone so that the police and local help workers can be aware.

Yes, there is ageism in the workplace, and there are those that are blatantly ageist, as there are anywhere, but Google has been cited for ageism, and to many they epitomize modern western corporate (IT) culture. Granted, the west certainly provides more tools to do something about professional ageism, but to generalize that obedient, hard working people go crazy and die alone in a culture that couldn't care less is the exact opposite of what is really happening.

I would add that the younger generation are less obedient and do not work as hard. There is a word they gave this problem too, and it is yutori-sedai.

refs: http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/10-17-14-facts-about-senior... http://www8.cao.go.jp/kourei/whitepaper/w-2013/gaiyou/s1_2_1... http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-02-28/in-japan-the... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/us-column-miller-a... http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/us-column-miller-a... https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%86%E3%81%A8%E3%82%8A%E4...

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#122

Post by mgkimsal »

SixSigma wrote: post #69
smil wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How has your country (you must be American) distinguished itself by doing these same core social and psychological issues? Or are Americans stubborn and ignorant?

Britains of a certain age are stoic and stubborn. I was in hospital with my gran (born in 1922) in ICU (a pulse of 33bpm - and turns out she had kidney failure too), when alone with me she was gripping my hand and saying "this is the worst I have ever felt", when a few minutes later the doctor arrive d and asked "how are you feeling?" she replied "I'm fine thank you". I think the current crop of younger people will b…

Not stoic so much, but my uk wife sliced her hand open on a can of cat food (in the US). 3 inch gash right across her palm. Bleeding. A lot. Wrapped it up in towel and said "we're going to the emergency room, get in the car". She replied "oh no, I don't want to bother them, they might be busy."

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#123

Post by polarix »

cousin_it wrote: post #92

That's a big problem with technological progress. It fulfills more and more of our needs, making it harder and harder to fulfill our need to be needed . Sure, you can give everyone basic income and robot caretakers, but people who aren't needed by other people will still suffer. I would much prefer it if society somehow changed itself to want and need all of its members, not just the young productive desirable ones.…

That sounds insanely dystopian to me, for the fact that any member of that society is viscerally dependent on others -- anyone who claims to value freedom needs to think again.

Being needed is crucially instrumental toward controlling one's own experience in the current environment. But why would it ever be a terminal value?

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#124

Post by jonahx »

smil wrote: post #65
teek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is incredibly stubborn and ignorant when it comes to addressing core social and psychological problems in their society. It isn't even recognized by most of the population so when people begin to complain of their own social issues or depression, people around them will slowly distance themselves from that person. As a result, most people will choose to hide their issues until it is unbearable. At the point the…

How has your country (you must be American) distinguished itself by doing these same core social and psychological issues? Or are Americans stubborn and ignorant?

Serious question: What gave you the impression he was American? I assumed the opposite -- that only a Japanese person, or at least the child of first-generation Japanese immigrants, would have made that post.

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#125

Post by [deleted] »

Spooky23 wrote: post #20
FrankenPC wrote: post #16

In my mind I see this as a social health crisis. The elderly provide an unbelievable amount of wisdom to the next generation. By abandoning them, we abandon our children's future. I think of the elderly as an essential vitamin for children. They impart valuable social memes and at the same time tell the children, by there mere existence in their lives, that we value our family and when the children's time comes to ag…

Society is bizarre in innumerable ways. The number of people who I know that have contempt for children or people having children is repugnant to me. I think the disdain for the young and old is a sign of decadence.

[deleted]

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#126

Post by omegaham »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #118
DanBC wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you have a phobia you should overcome it. We know that telling people to just get over it doesn't work. That's why we provide short courses of carefully planned therapy. Similarly telling a lonely person to just get over it does nothing to help that person. It might even make things worse - increasing feelings of failure and hopelessness.

We know that telling people to just get over it doesn't work. That's why we provide short courses of carefully planned therapy. These two sentences seem to contradict each other - the short courses of planned therapy are basically a therapist saying "get over it" and providing opportunities to ease into getting over it. And in this particular case, I can state confidently that telling people to just get over it does…

I'd refrain from the pickup artist / redpill subs, as the toxicity is genuinely pervasive, but the "just get out there and talk to people" advice is spot-on.

One thing that the FA crowd doesn't seem to realize is that you don't have to be attractive or even average to get into a relationship or friendship. Ugly people get laid all the time and have plenty of friends. The important thing is getting out there. And yes, it's hard. It's new, it's uncomfortable, and you suck at anything that you're new to. But the only way that you're going to get better at it is by getting out there and talking to more people.

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#127

Post by unabst »

auganov wrote: post #116
JesperRavn wrote: post #34

Why are there so many stories HN on social problems in Asia? I would have expected that smart people on HN would make some effort to understand Orientalism[0]. In the case of this story, this is a phenomenon that is occurring all around the developed world. Japan is in many ways just another developed country. But through the eyes of Orientalism, Japan's problems are unique and quaint, and the objective Westerner can…

I particularly don't like how many will insist on using the original Japanese term as if it was untranslatable, inapplicable to the outside world.

But the word is helping spread the word. That is the beauty of it.

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#128

Post by branchless »

Tistel wrote: post #114
rjuyal wrote: post #27

This is scary. This is the first time I read such article. I live alone, never married ( no plans to marry either ), have no friends. I have a decent job though. This article scares me.

Me too. I live in a city far from where I grew up. Good job. Lots of money. Don't know a soul.

Do something like go joint meetup.com. If you job isn't something like brain surgeon or another essential item then it's the old adage: nobody ever wished they had spent more time at work on their death bed.

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#129

Post by omegaham »

ekianjo wrote: post #30
FrankenPC wrote: post #16

In my mind I see this as a social health crisis. The elderly provide an unbelievable amount of wisdom to the next generation. By abandoning them, we abandon our children's future. I think of the elderly as an essential vitamin for children. They impart valuable social memes and at the same time tell the children, by there mere existence in their lives, that we value our family and when the children's time comes to ag…

> The elderly provide an unbelievable amount of wisdom Sorry, no. It's not because you grow grey hair that you get gifted wisdom or anything. There's a bunch of older people who are actually assholes, too. Getting old does not make your into a Saint.

There's a great short story called "The Last Answer," by Isaac Asimov.[1] In it, a scientist dies and is preserved by a "god" to think for eternity. He is quickly horrified by this and declares that he won't do it.

Murray said, “Consider, then, that my thoughts may be useless to you. If I come up with nothing useful, will it not be worth your while to – disassemble me and take no further trouble with me?”

“As a reward? You want Nirvana as the prize of failure and you intend to assure me failure? There is no bargain there. You will not fail. With all eternity before you, you cannot avoid having at least one interesting thought, however you try against it.”

You might be an asshole. You might be a fool who has wrecked his life and screwed everything up. However, you've lived for many decades. I'm sure that you have something interesting, valuable, or insightful to share. It would be extremely difficult to imagine a life where that's not the case.

[1]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_AxwTK5W6b4aG9ZUVRVcnJMN2M...

Re: The Lonely End: in aging Japan, thousands die alone and unnoticed

#130

Post by unabst »

JesperRavn wrote: post #34

Why are there so many stories HN on social problems in Asia? I would have expected that smart people on HN would make some effort to understand Orientalism[0]. In the case of this story, this is a phenomenon that is occurring all around the developed world. Japan is in many ways just another developed country. But through the eyes of Orientalism, Japan's problems are unique and quaint, and the objective Westerner can…

There certainly are cases of orientalist depiction in journalism, but I don't feel that is the case here. It could simply be the case that the volume of their social debate is loud enough that it is being picked up by other countries, because, as you say, it is a common problem.

As it turns out, senior isolation is at 28% in the US vs 20% in Japan. In the US, we don't even talk about it. To me, that is a far more serious problem.

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