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Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

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Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#51
It seems like you could dramatically improve the standard elevator system now that microcontrollers make it easy to have what used to be sophisticated control systems and modern power semiconductors make it easy to control large amounts of electrical power at high speeds.

Here’s a braindump. The overlong sentences are probably a symptom of too much coffee.

You’d have an “up” lane on the left and a “down” lane on the right, as in a paternoster or in Hitachi’s system mentioned in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9786871, but the cars wouldn’t stop in them; instead, you’d have a “station” at each floor in between the two lanes for the car to stop in without blocking traffic. (Popular floors, like typically the ground floor, would have several stations.) The cars would be small and light, holding two friends or a parent with some small children comfortably, with seatbelts and a maximum gross weight of maybe 300 kg; you could have a door to keep you from accidentally falling out of the car while it was moving, but it wouldn’t need to be automatic, since if you didn’t manage to get it closed, it would inconvenience only you (and whoever else is waiting to reach your floor, if you’re on a single-station floor.)

Once you are in motion, you continue to your destination floor without stopping; because you are sharing the elevator shaft with other cars, you don’t need to share the elevator car with other people. Your trajectory through spacetime to the destination station is reserved by the control computer before you leave the station, so that other cars will only crash into yours if there is a malfunction, such as a rail jam or a cable break. Much of the time, cars will travel through the shaft in convoys with their bumpers in contact with one another, limited by the speed of the frontmost car, which will greatly limit potential collision damage if a malfunction should happen.

(Probably the optimal number of stations on most floors is two, not one, because with two stations, there will almost always be one unoccupied station that your arrival can be scheduled into.)

Power and non-emergency braking are applied to the cars using the same cable-traction system all current elevators use (except for those shitty Otis hydraulic elevators, and those few rack-and-pinion elevators), but the energy is not applied to or removed from the cable by a motor; it is delivered to your car entirely from counterweights connected to your car’s cable through a system of CVTs and clutches. Low-power electric motors lift spare counterweights continuously to replace energy either lost to friction or stairway descents or currently stored in people or objects that haven’t returned back down to street level.

This system removes electric-power constraints to maximum acceleration, so that a continuous-jerk spline trajectory should allow comfortable ascents and descents with accelerations as large as ±⅓g. For a Burj-Khalifa-scale tower of 900 meters, ⅓g means you can comfortably travel from the bottom to the top, in any of the 100 or so cars, in about 20 or 30 seconds, reaching about 70 MPH in the middle of the trip, ten times normal elevator speed.

(Accelerating 300kg at ⅓g at 70MPH is about 43 horsepower, which is within the range of normal elevator power capacities, so it wouldn’t be impractical to build such a high-speed elevator system without the complicated CVT/clutch system, just inefficient.)

As with public-transit cable-car systems or cable tramways, your car can grasp and release cables dynamically, but it can grasp any of several different cables, allowing us to have more cars running at different velocities than we have cable loops and preventing cable breaks from being an emergency under normal circumstances.

And you would do all of this while taking up only the floor footprint of three small elevator cars on most levels, unlike the Burj Khalifa’s 57 large shafts, which run at one-third the peak speed described here and have to stop frequently because you share the car with a dozen other people.

(If you build a subway along these principles, you could use a 48-volt DC third rail; lightweight four-seat vehicles running on bicycle wheels powered by independent motors in the vehicle, rather than cableways; dirt-floored tunnels, unless you’re below the water table; and stations and lines spaced some 50 meters apart instead of 500.)

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#52
post #8

I made a special detour to ride one of these in Kobenhavn in the Axelborg building. If the statistics show them to be safe, I think they should be preserved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T49PsI6maMg For most human traffic, they are less tedious than elevators: less waiting, no stop and go, a constant sense of motion. I don't think their riders would feel trapped the way I sometimes do in slow, busy elevators. I th…

While that does look incredibly unsafe (and would get vandalised/abused a lot of left unattended) it also looks quite fun to use and I can see why people like them.

Re: vandalism

The building had no access controls at all. I walked into an unattended lobby and rode up and down for a while. I saw no evidence of vandalism.

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#53
post #10

1. > “Modern lifts are so idiot-proof you could use them in your sleep,” says Mr. Pfaff. “In fact, they are disenfranchising. Paternosters make you free to hurt yourself if you don’t pay attention.” For those thinking it is odd to want to have some potential pain in your life, keep in mind that Germany is the birthplace of the PainStation [1]. Wanting your elevator to be gunning for you then makes more sense. 2. In c…

And it utterly fails anyone in a wheelchair, pushing a pram, lugging a heavy suitcase etc.

Which is why these aren't built anymore, I guess. Especially the wheelchair example is a very good reason (I'd argue the other reasons can be largely considered irrelevant, depending on the building/use case).

So, they're neat, interesting, but probably irrelevant.

But removing them for safety? That's just stupid - just like the article.

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#54
post #9
post #7

> “The paternoster is the VW-beetle of elevators. Not many people use it, but many love it,” Ms. Nahles wrote in a Facebook post. Oh come on, VW is the largest car company in the world...

Yes, and they produce other models of cars besides the beetle.

They haven't made the Beetle in 12 years, and they haven’t made it outside Brazil and Mexico since 1979, 37 years ago.

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#55
post #17

I don't know how much truth there is to this, but my father once told me there had been very few fatalities on the original 7 mile bridge in the Florida keys. But since the new bridge opened in 1982, there have been fatal accidents every few years. The reason being the old bridge was so narrow (originally it was a railroad bridge), folks really paid attention driving it, but with the new wider bridge, drivers became…

Urban planners use this as a method to slow (or calm) traffic, specifically by narrowing lanes with protected bike lanes or diagonal parking on both sides of a street.

You say "calm", but that isn't how the drivers feel. They get full-on road rage.

BTW, you also get more pollution. Modern car gearing makes 60 MPH (100 KPH) pretty reasonable; cars from the previous century do better at about 2/3 that speed.

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#56

I think paternosters are really, really cool. I'd love to ride one. However, I must wonder whether they can be used by the elderly or disabled. How do you board one with a wheelchair? Or do they just run alongside modern elevators in buildings where handicapped accessibility is a requirement?

It doesn't look like a substitute for an elevator. More like a substitute for an escalator. Those aren't accessible either. Using it looks to require a skill set similar to that for riding an escalator. There's potential for mishap with either device. I wonder how safe the paternoster would be if it had modern safety devices, like a switch to shut it down if someone gets stuck in the parts? But one problem is that th…

> I wonder how safe the paternoster would be if it had modern safety devices, like a switch to shut it down if someone gets stuck in the parts? But one problem is that then everyone is stuck inside. You can just walk on an escalator when it's off.

Albeit somehow crude with no computers, infrared sensors or whatever, such safety devices are decades old.

For example, before the upward traveling cabin leaves the floor, there is a freely hanging wood panel -- if any part of you is sticking out, instead of being crushed in between the cabin and the next floor, you first hit the panel and lift it up, which trips a safety button shutting the whole elevator off. Or the last few inches of floorboards, both in the cabin and on the individual floors, are hinged.

As for being stuck inside when the safety trips -- having approximately one cabin per floor, each for two occupants at max, you are no worse than having a single cabin with multiple persons stuck in a traditional elevator. You can still walk on the adjacent staircase or use a traditional elevator. These elevators are also required to have a designated attendant (that does not mean a full time person sitting and doing nothing, for example a concierge can be in charge of that) and it is his or her role to immediately free (or call help) stuck people in case of safety cut out or power outage.

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#57
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urban planners use this as a method to slow (or calm) traffic, specifically by narrowing lanes with protected bike lanes or diagonal parking on both sides of a street.

You say "calm", but that isn't how the drivers feel. They get full-on road rage. BTW, you also get more pollution. Modern car gearing makes 60 MPH (100 KPH) pretty reasonable; cars from the previous century do better at about 2/3 that speed.

Urban traffic shouldn't be traveling faster then 30, maybe 35 mph on roads where traffic calming is used.

If you can't control your road rage, hang up the keys and walk.

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#58
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "calm", but that isn't how the drivers feel. They get full-on road rage. BTW, you also get more pollution. Modern car gearing makes 60 MPH (100 KPH) pretty reasonable; cars from the previous century do better at about 2/3 that speed.

Urban traffic shouldn't be traveling faster then 30, maybe 35 mph on roads where traffic calming is used. If you can't control your road rage, hang up the keys and walk.

> Urban traffic shouldn't be traveling faster then 30, maybe 35 mph on roads where traffic calming is used.

Why not?

Re: Is It Time for Germany’s Doorless Elevators to Move On?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both-side diagonal parking is an abomination. All it takes to block a road are two guys with long VW Sprinter vans and a regular dumpster truck can't maneuver through the hole. Witnessed this once, the honking in front of my window went for ten minutes and I had to call the cops - total time needed over half an hour.

Edge cases don't negate the usefulness of the method.

They very much do when those "edge cases" are frequent.
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