Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree, but I don't think you can be disappointed from this ruling. Getting the government out of marriage is not an option for the court to take, and it wasn't the issue before them. If we want government out of marriage, it'd have to be done through Congress and a reformed tax code.
Some states have started looking at dropping the formal recognition of marriage entirely. Increasingly devoid of any meaning, and given enough harassment for limiting who it applies to (consider, say, 12 people and a goat), comes a point where the state decides there is simply no point in recognizing the institution at all.
Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
871–880 of 1001 posts
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#872Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's much more along the lines of what I think. It's kind of the libertarian dilemma - with Gay Marriage, there's one huge, loud camp of religious homophobic bigots demanding that big daddy Government say that Gay Marriage is an illegal abomination, and another huge, loud group of homosexual-rights activists demanding that big daddy Government say that Gay Marriage is a-ok and governments everywhere are required to…
You're not being ignored. Lots of people agree that, in an ideal world, the government not having a role in marriage would be a decent solution. This is not an ideal world and that political position is not feasible; in the art of the possible, that is not. On the other hand, we have people being harmed by the unreasonable jank thrown at homosexuals who wish to marry. The perfect must not be made the enemy of the goo…
The thing about Government power, though - everything seems all nice and cool when it's pointed in a direction that you like, and it makes everything happen real fast and lays the smack down on your ideological opponents. But that power can turn on a dime and get pointed right back at your side, as has happened a great many times in history. Think it can't happen here? I hope it never does, but it does have a nasty tendency to happen in places and to people where they thought it couldn't, where they keep on doing the simple and efficient thing, because that couldn't possibly ever happen to us, right?
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#873For me and a lot of friends and family, marriage equality. Yay. "It is now clear that the challenged laws burden the liberty of same-sex couples, and it must be further acknowledged that they abridge central precepts of equality . . . Especially against a long history of disapproval of their relationships, this denial to same-sex couples of the right to marry works a grave and continuing harm. The imposition of this…
I'm glad that my LBG friends can now marry anywhere. But damn, Scalia's counter opinion (and Roberts' opinion) strike me as well-considered and well-argued in the 2nd half of http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf . In brief, their view was that resolving this issue in the courts erodes the democratic process. Can anybody counter Scalia, and say why the issue of gay marriage couldn't wait to be re…
In the previous paragraph he points out how, effectively, any majority-leaning set of judges can just invent new rights to assign to the country and they will be permanent [or at least, until a later court overturns them]. And he's right. But this is not news. Presidents have been trying to assign judges that lean their way on issues since... a long-ass time. The judges are human, moral, and they change their minds about how to interpret the law as the mob's mood changes.
And he's right that the majority simply shoving it's way down the minority's throat is unjust and is going to breed contempt. When the North defeated the South, racial tension didn't just disappear overnight. Those in the South kept a grudge and an ignorance that persists to this day. We may be using the power of the majority to force the removal of the flag, but those people who find that force offensive will not forget it. We didn't convert them, convince them, or make them understand; we held the proverbial Public Relations gun to our leadership's heads.
You ask why the states shouldn't have resolved the issue over time. Should the federal government have allowed some states to continue slavery? We all know it's a crime against humanity now, but what actually makes it a crime? Is it some old english scribbled on some parchment centuries ago? Or is it merely an intangible, unwritten law that reversed itself naturally as society changed over time?
The truth is, human civilizations have been morphing and evolving for thousands of years and they aren't going to stop doing so because some old farts had an idea a couple hundred years ago and we're trying to stick to their idea as hard as we can. Never changing, no matter how hard our society demands it, becomes simple fundamentalism, and our country was not founded on fundamentalism. Our country was founded - no matter how trite this sounds - on the idea of liberty over tyranny. We're always going to lean more towards liberty than tyranny.
We have a pretty good track record so far of not letting the states or federal government erode our liberty just because of the color of our skin, or our gender, or sexual identity, or religion. We protect people, always. But we don't limit people just because we don't like them or are afraid of them. Any time a state is asking to do that, we will eventually push back hard enough that the state will lose.
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#874Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, nation states have only existed for 500 years or so, and marriage is mentioned in the Bible and plenty of Ancient Greek writings. I'm not sure if that counts as evidence here in reality-land.
> Well, nation states have only existed for 500 years or so Wat.
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#875Well, I know I'm probably a minority in saying this, but I'm disappointed - not because I don't think everyone should have access to the government rights attached to marriage, but because it seems our country doesn't actually want to fix problems at the root. What is the root problem? People on both sides of the debate agree (if given the option) that the government probably never should have messed with marriage, a…
I agree with you on the end goal, but perfect is the enemy of the good, and I could not more strongly disagree about waiting until that perfect solution is on the table. Having every gay couple wait another couple of decades until everybody gets their head out of their ass to have basic rights like visitation of their partner in the hospital, inheritance rights, co-parental rights of children, etc. is an unacceptable…
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#876Earlier quoted context omitted.
Currently, are Catholic priests required to perform marriages for non-Catholics? I think they are not, even though the right to not be Catholic is constitutionally protected. But just in case, the majority did insert language making clear that this is about what the government can and can't do, not about what religions can and can't do: Finally, it must be emphasized that religions, and those who adhere to religious…
There's controversy at the state level over whether religious photographers, DJs, bakers, florists, and wedding planners should be forced to participate equally in all weddings regardless of their religious belief. That's going to be the next big fight.
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#877Earlier quoted context omitted.
State is a prerequisite for law, except in a libertarian's dorm-room fantasies.
It depends on your definitions. If you consider all legal systems to be "states," including primitive tribal ones, decentralized ones, etc., then yes, "state is a prerequisite for law" is a tautology. But today, "state" usually refers to a relatively large and relatively centralized organization governing a well-specified region that is recognized by other such states. Using that definition, a state is very clearly n…
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#878Earlier quoted context omitted.
France has done so. When you get married there, it has to be performed by a government official (usually someone representing the mayor's office). You can have a big church wedding if you want, but the state doesn't recognize it. Later, France created a very powerful form of non-marriage civil union (the PACS) and saw it become incredibly popular with straight couples.
What? That's exactly the opposite of what parent is suggesting (if I understood correctly): marriage should be a private or religious matter and not a legal institution. Also, non religious marriage has been going on for a long time in many countries (e.g. China) and I don't think France is a notable pioneer in that area.
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#879Well, I know I'm probably a minority in saying this, but I'm disappointed - not because I don't think everyone should have access to the government rights attached to marriage, but because it seems our country doesn't actually want to fix problems at the root. What is the root problem? People on both sides of the debate agree (if given the option) that the government probably never should have messed with marriage, a…
Exactly. I think the libertarian way to go would be to limit the role of the Govt. to enable Tax breaks for spouses, and other impersonal things.
"Getting married" is very easy and requires almost no expense and only a little bit of time. You don't need to plan at all for a civil marriage, just sign some paperwork. Drafting all the documents you'll need (will, medical directive, etc.) without a marriage takes lots of time and money (lawyer fees). Writing marriage into laws is a way to save families time and money and make everything simple for them.
Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules
#880Earlier quoted context omitted.
That same concern already equally applies to traditional marriage, in which some % are abusive. If you have a problem with polygamy on that basis, then you've got a drastically larger problem with the already existing system of marriage, in which millions of instances of abuse occur annually. The best solution is to bring polygamy out into the open, legalize it fully nationally. The government has no business dictati…
As to abuse in a typical 2 person marriage, yes, you're right, but this is also something that I believe society tries to deal with. There are always going to be abusive relationships, regardless of how many people are in them, but I do think that my question (opinion, whatever you want to call it), about how power and relationships change depending on the number of people involved is something to consider. I totally…
Most societies studied (83.5% of the 853 societies according to George Murdock, for example) preferred polygyny. In other words, what you describe as "1 male with 10 wives" has always been the norm in human history.
The real question is - why enforce monogamy, especially as extramarital affairs and unequal couplings continue anyway? Fairness and justice are human inventions; they do not exist in nature.