Live data from Hacker News

Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

nytimes.com

831–840 of 1001 posts

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#831
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anybody counter Scalia, and say why the issue of gay marriage couldn't wait to be resolved by the states? For the same reason that slavery couldn't be resolved by the states. For the same reason that racism can't be resolved by the states. Because these things haven't gotten resolved by states. The United States of America, sadly, has a significant minority of people who Just Don't Get It, and there are enough…

I'm one of those who I think you would say "Just Don't Get It." Judging from your rhetoric, you clearly don't understand why some people do not think gay marriage is a good thing for the country. I don't think you have earned the right to say we "Just Don't Get It" and need to be "dope-slapped" until you actually get why we disagree with your viewpoint. If you can coherently argue for my position (even though you dis…

> you clearly don't understand why some people do not think gay marriage is a good thing for the country

I've been studying this issue (and writing about it) for twelve years. I doubt very much there is an argument on either side I haven't heard.

But this is a red herring. It doesn't matter whether gay marriage is or is not a good thing for the country. (I think it is, but that's irrelevant too.) What matters is if it's protected by the Constitution.

So here's the test: do you think that states can Constitutionally ban interracial marriage? If so, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. But if not, then I submit that you cannot oppose same-sex marriage without being a hypocrite. There is no argument against gay marriage that cannot be applied just as well to interracial marriage.

If you think there is such an argument, I'm listening.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#832
post #42

Is there a general summary of the arguments made by the dissenting 4?

Roberts: definition of marriage should be made by legislation. Scalia: The Supreme Court has too much power any time it does not agree with me. Thomas: Due Process doesn't include right to be married. Alito: Power in this matter is reserved to the States individually. Also, the Supreme Court has too much power any time it does not agree with me.

Extended version w/ quotes:

Roberts:

- "[T]his Court is not a legislature. Whether same-sex marriage is a good idea should be of no concern to us. Under the Constitution, judges have power to say what the law is, not what it should be."

- "The fundamental right to marry does not include a right to make a State change its definition of marriage."

- "Supporters of same-sex marriage have achieved considerable success persuading their fellow citizens—through the democratic process—to adopt their view. That ends today. Five lawyers have closed the debate and enacted their own vision of marriage as a matter of constitutional law. Stealing this issue from the people will for many cast a cloud over same-sex marriage, making a dramatic social change that much more difficult to accept."

- "It is important to note with precision which laws petitioners have challenged. Although they discuss some of the ancillary legal benefits that accompany marriage, such as hospital visitation rights and recognition of spousal status on official documents, petitioners’ lawsuits target the laws defining marriage generally rather than those allocating benefits specifically. The equal protection analysis might be different, in my view, if we were confronted with a more focused challenge to the denial of certain tangible benefits."

Scalia:

- "This practice of constitutional revision by an unelected committee of nine, always accompanied (as it is today) by extravagant praise of liberty, robs the People of the most important liberty they asserted in the Declaration of Independence and won in the Revolution of 1776: the freedom to govern themselves."

- "We have no basis for striking down a practice that is not expressly prohibited by the Fourteenth Amendment’s text, and that bears the endorsement of a long tradition of open, widespread, and unchallenged use dating back to the Amendment’s ratification. Since there is no doubt whatever that the People never decided to prohibit the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples, the public debate over same-sex marriage must be allowed to continue. But the Court ends this debate, in an opinion lacking even a thin veneer of law."

Thomas:

- "[T]he majority invokes our Constitution in the name of a 'liberty' that the Framers would not have recognized, to the detriment of the liberty they sought to protect. Along the way, it rejects the idea—captured in our Declaration of Independence—that human dignity is innate and suggests instead that it comes from the Government."

- "Whether we define 'liberty' as locomotion or freedom from governmental action more broadly, petitioners have in no way been deprived of it. Petitioners cannot claim, under the most plausible definition of 'liberty,' that they have been imprisoned or physically restrained by the States for participating in same-sex relationships. To the contrary, they have been able to cohabitate and raise their children in peace."

Alito:

- "The question in these cases, however, is not what States should do about same-sex marriage but whether the Constitution answers that question for them. It does not. The Constitution leaves that question to be decided by the people of each State."

- "To prevent five unelected Justices from imposing their personal vision of liberty upon the American people, the Court has held that 'liberty' under the Due Process Clause should be understood to protect only those rights that are 'deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition.’ ...And it is beyond dispute that the right to same-sex marriage is not among those rights."

------

Disclaimer, IANAL - just picked the quotes that stuck out at me in each dissent.

Roberts' and Scalia's central theme was the Court overstepping its bounds and ending the legislative process prematurely. To me Roberts was essentially saying, "You guys are winning this on the legislative front easily, this is not something SCOTUS needs to decide." Thomas' was pretty cryptic and relied on lots of quotes from 18th and 19th century thinkers to define "liberty." Alito appealed to tradition and worried about this outcome producing a rush of lawsuits from religious institutions who were left in a limbo by the decision; he would have preferred state or national legislation that could clarify how this affected religious schools and such.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a time when homosexuality was considered morally wrong by the majority of people in this country. Polygamy was also considered wrong, as was incest, marrying children, bestiality, and probably some other things that I'm forgetting. So my question is this: Given that the majority of people here seem to be so liberal-minded that they consider (consensual, non-coercive) polygamy to be fine, is there anything t…

You've answered your own question: "consensual, non-coercive"

First, don't put words in my mouth. That's not my answer.

Second, that's it? Nothing more? Consensual, non-coercive between, say, a 70-year-old and a 9-year-old is fine?

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#834
post #46

Yeah, I'm still slightly pissed they basically waited until the majority was clear before they'd rule on the matter. Its another clear sign our Judiciary is really just as political as the politicians are, even if no one says so openly. > As late as October, the justices ducked the issue, refusing to hear appeals from rulings allowing same-sex marriage in five states. That decision delivered a tacit victory for gay r…

> Yeah, I'm still slightly pissed they basically waited until the majority was clear before they'd rule on the matter. Its another clear sign our Judiciary is really just as political as the politicians are, even if no one says so openly. I'm a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I'm glad the Court waited until the consensus was clear. At bottom, this isn't a right flowing from the dictates of the Constitution. Nob…

> Nobody in 1789 would have said that gay marriage is a fundamental right.

That's one of those assertions that relies on present-day society always believing they are more socially advanced than earlier ages, and that society moves forward monotonically in lock step around the world.

In fact, modern American society is a lot more prudish about same-sex unions of various types than earlier societies in Rome, Greece, and China at various times. It's very likely that one could find contemporaries of the authors of our Constitution, in comparable circumstances of economic and cultural development, who thought same sex unions are perfectly OK.

The men of 1789 who wrote the Constitution wrote a document they aspired to. Pretty obviously in the case of slavery, but in many other ways.

They explicitly said they could not enumerate rights. If you think otherwise, I'd like to know what you think of the following:

If someone invented a brain accelerator that imparted god-like intelligence, would you have a right to use it, or would the government grant such a right?

If someone cured old age, would you have a right to access that cure? Or would government have a say in this novel, unprecedented thing?

If someone invented an unbreakable code, would you have a right to what amounts to an uncrackable safe for your "documents and effects?"

If someone invented a personal spaceship, would you have a right to go to space, assuming you could do it without endangering others?

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality-land, marriage is far older than English legal tradition.

Common law is the basis for US law, and drew on pre-English tradition. Crack a liberal arts book open some time.

I'm fully aware of that, but it's irrelevant to the claim that the poster suspects "that religious marriage existed long before nation states" being disputed with "the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it".

The simple fact is marriage easily predates all the English (pre or not) legal traditions. English (pre or not) traditions at best drew on the earlier concepts and practice of marriage.

Crack a world history book open sometime. Or just use google.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Simply because we already had equality as far as the law was concerned. Everyone was entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex. Everyone was barred from marrying someone of the same sex. The law applied equally.

Yes, and bans on interracial marriage didn't violate equality because everyone was allowed to marry someone of their own race...

Correct.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#837
One of the interesting thing is how severe disagreements are between the supreme court judges[1]. You might think these judges are debating with cold logical arguments and finally either understand other person's argument or be able to convince others of theirs. Instead what we are seeing is judges literally and personally attacking other judges in same panel and accusing them to derail the very constitution and democracy they are expected to protect. Can they make any ore serious accusations? It's also very interesting that judge votes were highly predictable based on their political leanings and which administration appointed them. This just boggled my mind. First, why we should allow any person strongly conforming to any political ideology as a supreme court judge? Why a political leader who almost always have represented as head of certain political ideology be able to even appoint a supreme court judge?

1. http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/marriage-same-...

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#838
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Marriage has always been a government institution. Religion co-opted it for themselves at a later time. I don't think that's the full story. I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states and most of the current legal distinctions associated with marriage.

> I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states Do you have any actual evidence? Because here in reality-land, the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it.

Forget the English, marriage has been along longer than even the Anglo-Saxons in general.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#839
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think that's the full story. I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states and most of the current legal distinctions associated with marriage. I suspect that marriage - a man/wife pairing (or 1-to-N grouping) recognized by the tribe/village with respect to all those legal distinctions related to property, children, etc... - existed long before the religion.

That would require humans to have existed before religion, which is frankly quite ridiculous.

Are we supposing religious monkeys now? It wouldn't surprise me if earlier hominids were religious as well, but to call any other possibility "quite ridiculous" is really overstepping.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any moral objections to poly-marriage, but I don't think it's the same thing as gay marriage. Prohibition of gay marriage is rooted in the identity of individuals , but prohibition of polygamy is based on the amount of participants in the union. No one is discriminated against in the face of poly-marraige prohibition because it has nothing to do with the traits of any individual.

Sure it does: The trait of whom you choose as a partner. The trait of the structure of your union. The difference between the number of participants vs the gender distribution of the participants is academic.

> The difference between the number of participants vs the gender distribution of the participants is academic.

That's incorrect. The difference is critical as it pertains to discrimination against a certain type of persons. Prohibition of gay marriage means "this type of person cannot marry that type of person"; this is a restriction based on type of person. Contrast that with prohibition of polyamorous marriage which means "a person can marry up to one other person"; this is a restriction based on a factor that is detached from any individual members of the union, making each individual interchangeable with regard to the application of the law.

> The trait of whom you choose as a partner.

Prohibition of poly-marriage has nothing to do with whom you choose as a partner. There is no whom, the only factor is how many, a quality completely detached from the qualities of any individual.

> The trait of the structure of your union.

The structure of one's union is not a trait of an individual.

The difference is even more obvious when you ask yourself what type of information is necessary in order to enforce prohibition of either type of marriage. Here's a thought experiment that makes the difference even more explicit. Given the pseudo-schema below, consider the difference between the queries you'd need to write in order to return all poly unions vs all gay unions.

    persons_table:  person_id, name, age, sex
    marriage_table: marriage_id, person_id
Post reply on HN