Live data from Hacker News

Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

nytimes.com

801–810 of 1001 posts

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#801
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About polygamy: If I can share a company with two other founder, share its money and profits, share the building, etc. why can't I do the same thing with my private life if I want to? Instead of dividing by two, you divide by three, four... sixteen... why not?

My best response is, because currently one of the parties (the state) to the original agreement doesn't want to nor currently agree to allow that? So I suppose if the state changed their laws and allowed it then it would be possible. My assumption is that the first state that is party to the first marriage would, in its best interests, require that all subsequent additions to the marriage be under that state and only…

Makes sense when you remember that the first point of mariage was for children. Whose children is it if there are 4 people in the mariage? The biological parents? What if the biological parents split up and you end up with only the two remaining non-biological parents. Do they keep the child? If they were all equal as parents except... argh. I give up. My head hurts. I am happy not to be the one who makes laws.

This is a very interesting topic.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it not "registration of a marriage" as opposed to "application for marriage"? Because you cannot be married to two different people at the same time. Marriage is not an event that happens, it's a legal contract that cannot be in conflict with an existing legal contract. A new marriage does not immediately nullify the existing contract, so an application must be processed to verify this. There are also other…

If we are to use the biblical sense of marriage, the Old Testament has a few incidents where a man was married to multiple wives[1]. Then if we are to be traditional, can a marriage not be among multiple people? Since we have denied same-sex marriage on religious or moral grounds, are we saying we should deny the right for a man to marry multiple men or women or a woman to marry multiple men or women because of our b…

The argument for denying plural marriage is that, in the US, polygamy has been primarily a tool for subjugating women. Legally recognizing these unions would be granting legal cover to people like Warren Jeffs.

If this view is outdated, and our laws against polygamy are causing people real pain, then by all means let them make their case; perhaps times have changed. But we do not make laws in the abstract, and polygamy in the USA is intimately connected to subjugation, abuse, FLDS, and other ugliness.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#803
post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage need not be a "government thing" in the modern sense, with all the legal distinctions we currently have. Marriage is inherently a legal thing, in the sense that it's a contract between people.

Marriage confers very special rights, such as permanent residency or social security inheritance, that you cannot obtain through private contracts. Therefore the government has to be involved.

this is the crux of the issue in that government policy is, in large part, based upon a private contract. neither government nor judeo-christian sects (which, if we're honest, is whom we have in view when we speak of "religion") seem to be able to grasp the full implications of this.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#804
post #662
post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we legalize and support through marriage all naturally occurring sexual desires and acts? I think that questions almost answers itself, but you never know after a ruling like this.

That's a red herring, almost concern troll-esque, argument. This ruling isn't a slippery slope towards moral depravity and chaos, no matter how much religious authorities will attempt to paint it as such. We can definitely know that civilization as we know it will not collapse because two guys/girls are allowed to kiss, hold hands once in a while, and receive acknowledgment from civil authorities that they share tax…

The religious arguments made by opponents to this are disingenuous.

The Bible and many other traditional religious texts have lots of bad things to say about, say, usury (the charging of interest, or at least excess interest), yet you see nobody protesting outside credit card companies or payday lenders. I don't think I've ever heard a Christian conservative criticize our excessive level of private debt. The Catholic Church today is generally anti-death-penalty and anti-war, yet these Papal opinions do not seem to trickle down to the laity either. Christian conservatives were mostly cheerleading the Iraq invasion, though protestants did so slightly more than Catholics.

That tells me this is a proxy debate, at least for the right, and that the real issue is something else. Proxy debates happen when the real issue being debated is something that is verboten in polite discussion, or is something that's already been put to bed -- e.g. the "evolution" proxy debate which is really over teaching of religion in schools (an already settled issue).

The real reason as near as I can tell boils down to crypto-racism and eugenics concerns. If homosexuality is "okay," then that might negatively impact fertility among more "desirable" urban demographics, etc. Basically the concern is that this will negatively impact white or upper class fertility.

That stuff is verboten to talk about in polite company, thus the proxy debating.

P.S. I don't agree and am pro-equality -- I am just analyzing what I see as the real reason for all the opposition. Delve into the right-o-sphere and you immediately run into a ton of "HBD" (human biodiversity, a modern neo-racialist rebranding) type stuff.

P.P.S. I did give the parents a compensatory up-vote since I don't think down-votes should be done out of disagreement. Down-votes should be for things that are just stupid, effortless, or mean-spirited, not for opinions that are just unpopular.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#805
post #757
post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a red herring, almost concern troll-esque, argument. This ruling isn't a slippery slope towards moral depravity and chaos, no matter how much religious authorities will attempt to paint it as such. We can definitely know that civilization as we know it will not collapse because two guys/girls are allowed to kiss, hold hands once in a while, and receive acknowledgment from civil authorities that they share tax…

You're right, it's not a slippery slope. It's a gate we've opened and said that whatever your sexual compulsion is, no one else has a right to tell you that it's wrong. That is a very dangerous gate to open and you don't get to close it after gay "marriage" is approved - others will want the freedom as well. It's not a red herring because you already have people on HN, and I'm sure many many other places, asking when…

>You're right, it's not a slippery slope. It's a gate we've opened and said that whatever your sexual compulsion is, no one else has a right to tell you that it's wrong. That is a very dangerous gate to open and you don't get to close it after gay "marriage" is approved - others will want the freedom as well.

Call it what you will, a gate or a slope: we are describing the same phenomenon: "Things will get worse now that we have allowed this one thing." Answer me this: why is it [a] dangerous [gate] for two people of the same sex to commit to one another (mainly financially) under the eyes of the government? "Others" might want the freedom, but social mores at large will dictate what becomes legal practice and what doesn't. (P.S.: You've yet to explicitly define "others". What exactly do you have in mind?) As I've stated above, the ability to consent is what separates out what should remain illegal and what should not remain illegal.

>And to play devil's advocate (and that language is intentional) who are you to say that a child or an animal can't consent to a sexual relationship or marriage with another child or an adult? How closed-minded of you.

Bitter and unfortunate irony aside, "consent" isn't some ill-defined term that I'm pulling out of left field. College campuses across the United States are developing programs for 18-year old freshmen so that they understand what consent entails, so as to encourage the formation of psychologically, socially and physically healthy (sexual) relationships. For the most part, these programs are geared towards alcohol awareness and the new found freedom of dorm life, but the concepts remain the same. Can a child fully understand the implications of "touch me here"? Can an animal? Can a person blowing a 0.30 BAC? Also, I am not deciding that a child can't consent, I am merely describing social issues that are studied by people who know more than I do.

> We are already giving children under 18 the right to access birth control (without their parent's consent) and the freedom to decide that they are not the gender that they were "assigned" - so why can't they decide who to "love"?

Oh the humanity! Birth control for post-pubescent girls! Birth control and gender assignment are issues of a different nature than gay marriage or pedophilia. Firstly, birth control has medically useful applications outside of pregnancy prevention. Regardless, both birth control and gender assignment are things that only impact the "self", so the comparison falls flat. What does birth control have to do with harm or damage to anyone else? What can gender reassignment do to harm anyone besides the individual in question? It is a well-known phenomenon that victims of child abuse and sexual abuse have issues that last into adulthood. [1] Neither birth control nor gender reassignment surgery promote poor mental or physical health.

> And who are you to say an animal doesn't have the same rights, feelings, and ability to give consent as a human? I think PETA and many others would actively disagree.

I don't have a quote from PETA (I will leave it up to you to flesh out that argument, and find evidence that they actively support sexual relations between man and animal.), but I have found a quote from another ethical promotion society. "As animals do not have the same capacity for thinking as humans, they are unable to give full consent. The HSUS takes the position that all sexual activity between humans and animals is abusive, whether it involves physical injury or not." [2]

> If you pay attention, I haven't mentioned religion. What I've mentioned is the reasoning and appeal you gave for allowing what is "natural". Who decides what is "natural" and acceptable for human beings? The animal kingdom? You personally? These are not troll questions, these are important questions and it matters gravely how we answer them.

Whether or not you've explicitly mentioned religion, reading between the lines of your post suggests that your version of "natural" is based on what comes from the Abrahamic religions. What is "artificial" about letting people feel more comfortable in their body? (Gender reassignment) My personal definition of "right" (and to a lesser extent, "natural") revolves around minimizing harm (physical, emotional, social) done to others. Without getting into an argument about natural rights and the purpose of government... The government disallowing two consenting adults of the same gender from sharing certain financial rights promotes undue harm and hardship. Why should they suffer because they are attracted to the same gender rather than the other? Conversely, the government disallowing an adult from having a sexual relationship with a minor prevents undue harm to a defenseless child.

I don't get to decide what is ultimately right, so the above postulation is just one of many that gets thrown in to the pot of "democracy". Independent of who gets to decide for society, what matters in this forum is strength of argument and logic. Frankly, you've haven't made an argument (that I can see) as to why allowing gay marriage will inevitably lead to the legalization of pedophilia/bestiality/taboo de jour. With that, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in taking your implication at face value: that gay marriage, in and of itself isn't bad, but since gay marriage might lead to "bad" things, it becomes a "bad" thing too. (Which I believe is specious at best.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse#Psychological [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia#Arguments_against_zo...

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#806
post #715
post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But marriage is not a religious thing. Before most popular religions were created, marriage was already old. For cultural reasons, it's popular to do a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY along the marriage. What's religious there is the ceremony, not the marriage. You can have religious ceremonies without marriage, and marriages without the religious ceremony. Two independent concepts that, by happenstance, often come together.

marriage certainly predates Christianity. Therefore marriage shouldn't be associated with Christianity or Islam or whatever. Marriage is a social construct before being a religious one.

you're conflating "Christianity" with "religion" though. it was addressed above but it bears repeating, social and religious constructs were inextricable in antiquity. the concept of separating them is fairly modern.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. An example of how bad things can get, we can look at ISIS. people governing a with religious rules will never go any good, mostly because religious rules were created a very long time ago for a completely different world.

That's an extremely selective example to support your view. For an example of the opposite, look at the Khmer Rouge, which governed with a specifically anti-religious stance, committed genocide and torture, and starved a large portion of their population. Or consider Stalin and Mao, who killed tens of millions each, or even the French Revolutionaries, who killed tens of thousands without trial. Religion is not the so…

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people; you are wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."

Havelock Vetinari

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#808
post #526

Well, I know I'm probably a minority in saying this, but I'm disappointed - not because I don't think everyone should have access to the government rights attached to marriage, but because it seems our country doesn't actually want to fix problems at the root. What is the root problem? People on both sides of the debate agree (if given the option) that the government probably never should have messed with marriage, a…

Marriage has always been a government institution. Religion co-opted it for themselves at a later time. This "leave marriage to the churches where they belong" cry is disingenuous. Marriage is about a contract between individuals. It provides government granted privileges in regards to taxes, healthcare, inheritance, court testimony and child custody. It has nothing to do with religion. If you want to have a religiou…

"Marriage is about a contract between individuals" Interestingly, I view it as the exact opposite. My wife and I knew of our bond together. I got married only because it was a public recognition of that bond. It was to share that bond with friends and family. It did not change our relationship or commitment at all.

As to the legal situation many have mentioned, that could have easily been covered by a will for us. It may vary by country, but a will and defacto status offer the same protection in some parts of the world. I sought legal advice when I considered my options of marriage because marriage means little to me. I think its significance to a couple's commitment is highly over rated.

Re: Same-Sex Marriage Is a Right, Supreme Court Rules

#809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect that religious marriage existed long before nation states Do you have any actual evidence? Because here in reality-land, the evidence shows that the English legal tradition considered marriage a civil institution long before the churches tried to claim it.

In reality-land, marriage is far older than English legal tradition.

Common law is the basis for US law, and drew on pre-English tradition. Crack a liberal arts book open some time.
Post reply on HN