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Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#211

Post by justizin »

nmrm2 wrote: post #166
Brendinooo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a good thing. However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would encourage you to do some…

> They're just people who have a bit of a redneck streak, are into country music, hunting, etc. I know what you're saying, having grown up in the non-deep south. However, I disagree with you. The flag makes a lot of people very uncomfortable (and for very good reasons). Placing one's sense of self-importance/rebellion above other's feelings of safety and belonging in a community that has historically enslaved and mur…

Agree with what you say, also take issue with the previous commenter's notion:

> Symbols are what we make them to be.

I think this is a really dangerous point of view.

There are certainly some symbols with wiggle room, but I would argue that symbols transcend language by encoding meaning.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#212

Post by justizin »

sologoub wrote: post #142
smanuel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess that's a very delicate subject to talk about. In Wolfenstein 3D you can't play a nazzi shooting Americans (for example). You play the good guy shooting the bad guys. I also don't think the problem is the flag. IMO the real problem is that in most of the games you can play on both sides. Kids can easily start identifying themselves as the side on which they play and forget the important details. Like...…

As a kid growing up in USSR, we often played various WWII themed games and someone had to be the nazi. We usually did a coin toss and as far as I know, none of the kids turned into the actual nazis or far right extremists. Sometimes kids play is just that - kids play...

That's fine. I don't think Apple is saying, "We believe this game is morally wrong", I think Apple is saying, "We don't want to touch that with a ten foot pole."

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#213

Post by Nadya »

justizin wrote: post #209
MBCook wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that comment isn't meant to apply to Apple, it was just a response/agreement with onewaystreet. I know this kind of thing always happens, but I was surprised how fast 'everyone' latched onto the flag as the core issue this time that will solve everything.

It won't solve everything, but it's about damned time it stopped being socially acceptable. The flag was re-raised in response to the civil rights movement. It's not the core issue, but I think it would be silly to say, in post-WWII Germany, that simply taking down nazi symbols won't stop people from thinking like nazis.

A self-described anarchist that supports censorship from a governing body (not necessarily government body).

Seems contradictory to an anarchists' ideals.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#214

Post by Wintamute »

If we censor history how do we learn from it as a society? By giving nazi, confederate or any other problematic symbology special status as something too terrible to even gaze upon we elevate it to something almost suprahuman, and we forget that these atrocities were perpetrated by humans for the most part just like us. It makes those dark times just that bit more likely to come to pass again. This is small minded, unethical and irresponsible of Apple.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#215

Post by moron4hire »

justizin wrote: post #208
moron4hire wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it takes a lot of people and time to figure it out for each app on the store. Right, because why would they dedicate resources and effort to the biggest feature of their biggest product?

Because a solution that requires a hundred people to let through 1% of submissions is a terrible way to do business.

Why? That is not obvious at all. I mean, that very concept "curation to ensure quality", is the entire justification for putting up with their walled-garden, rent-seeking, prior-restraint practices. So why shouldn't we expect them to do their fucking job?

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#216

Post by Frozenlock »

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

Or, you know, things are sometimes more complicated than the political spin given on them. (Especially by the winners)

Surely you know that Lincoln didn't care about the slaves (or at least they weren't his highest prority, which is odd for a war that's supposed to be about slavery.):

> “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union…”

It's also a complex situation about taxes, jurisdictions and a supposedly 'voluntary' union between states. I suppose one does not take likely the realization that their voluntary cooperation was in fact hidden servitude.

What boggles the mind is seeing how people on HN are very skeptical of any current politician, but will gladly accept many propaganda issued by past ones.

Do many of you believe that the crusades were really to free the Holy Land? That it was for the good of the people?

> "It astounds me that there are large numbers of whites in this country who think the Civil War was about anything other than slavery."

And it astounds me that a large numbers of whites in USA think that their history was a series of clear cut victories against evil enemies. And when the enemies were from within the borders... well they were also evil. Obviously.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#217

Post by dalore »

TillE wrote: post #23
Mithaldu wrote: post #3

Germany has a law about this, with some exceptions that would specifically apply to cases like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_§_86a When a movie like Iron Sky has no problem being shown in German cinemas with the swastika left untouched, because it's clearly art, then it should be fairly obvious to Apple that banning historically accurate representations in historically accurate interactive a…

Apple is quite explicitly uninterested in artistic expression on the app store. From the second paragraph in their guidelines: "We view Apps different than books or songs, which we do not curate. If you want to criticize a religion, write a book. If you want to describe sex, write a book or a song, or create a medical App." Their stance makes very little sense (arbitrarily dividing games away from books or films), bu…

So could we create a porn book?

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#218

Post by hughw »

So many comments here, on this topic, are in the sense of "Oh great we're talking about a symbol, while not fixing the root causes like guns and racism". I have a sense that's a POV of West Coasters, simply unable to fathom the depth of this symbol and its importance to racists, anti-racists, and its presence permeating everyday life in the South. Removing this symbol is a traumatic step even for many people of good will. The symbol is everywhere, and usually is employed innocuously. So getting rid of the symbol, even where used innocuously, means that even the people who intend no harm by it, have come to be conscious of the pain it causes to black descendants of slaves, every day. It's a big step for the southern "middle".

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#219

Post by LoSboccacc »

refurb wrote: post #61
Someone1234 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly suspect they wrote that expressively in case a court ever looks at Apple's policies, and needs to decide if Apple is silencing art/freedom of speech. Essentially they want to separate themselves from most existing legal precedent.

I strongly suspect they wrote that expressively in case a court ever looks at Apple's policies, and needs to decide if Apple is silencing art/freedom of speech Why would that end up in court? Apple is a private company. It's free to include/exclude whatever content it wants. Consumers don't have a right to force a company to provide the content they want.

difference being they scan and validate content and apply their own family rating, instead of relying on third party, so anything that gets under the radar is their liability, as opposed to book/music that have the explicit/mature label slapped from the origin.

this looks more the result of living in the land of the lawsuit-happy easily offended puritans than anything else. if they could shift liability to esrb for their apps and games, they would

actually, I wonder how did they managed to pass under the esrb radar so far.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#220

Post by shaftoe »

justizin wrote: post #202
onewaystreet wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because gun control is pretty much dead in the US. If 20 children being killed in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting wasn't enough to pass new legislation, 9 adults certainly wouldn't be. The flag has become an issue so politicians can be seen "doing something."

> The flag has become an issue so politicians can be seen "doing something." I think that's a little more cynical than need be. Most of the politicians who are doing anything about the flag are Republicans and they are doing it despite the fact that it is upsetting some of their base, in a rare show of basic decency. The retailers who stopped selling merchandise are saying that they don't want to make money selling r…

Can one ever be cynical enough when politicians are involved?
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