Would a Northrop Grumman engineer with a GitHub full of cool projects really be overlooked in a recruitment process? Not once, that can always happen, but regularly?
Yes, regularly. Valley has a very short attention span. NG isn't in the list of hip sexy companies. Same goes with profiles from Cisco, VMWare, Intel, Synposys, IBM, and pretty much all the big companies that were pinnacles of business and your career at one point, but they are not considered hip anymore. Looking at Github profiles, however much people talk about it, also doesn't regularly happen. It's a chore to typ…
What happens when you stop relying on resumes
31–40 of 195 posts
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#32When people abandoned resumes like this it's because there is some corruption in their hiring process and lesser skilled management is attempting to hire down for political control. Their only goal is to go through the motions and stay employed. Some people don't want experts. They want to have the illusion of a functioning business unit. People with no formal training that have projects that sound impressive to the…
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#33For example, I don't do well in whiteboard interviews, which is odd because I normally don't have a public speaking issue. It feels like there's some muscle memory attached to coding that isn't well replicated with poor handwriting in a room full of people.
Whiteboard lines of code are simply not the manner in which developers work once hired. That is the reason for the disconnect between speaking well about projects (easy to verbally explain and sketch) and the programming portion (bizarre.)
Right the industry is doing the equivalent of interviewing lawyers by asking them to write a legal brief on a white board.
We're testing the wrong thing: a proxy for the work, when we we could easily test the work itself.
I much prefer work sample tests rather than whiteboard Q/A as it better replicates the actual job. Give me a few hours with problems I would actually face on the job, my dev environment, internet access, and a set of problems that truly reflect the work, and I find it much more natural.
Is it too much to ask that an interview measure skills the job actually requires, in an environment that emulates the work?
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#34I think this is very interesting counterpoint to TripleByte's data which implied that talking about passion projects was lower signal than their coding quizzes. The benchmark was performance in a long form coding interview for TripleByte, whereas Aline's is the final offer, so not exactly apples to apples.
Aline here. Fwiw, I don't disagree with TripleByte's findings... anecdotally, after having interviewed somewhere between 500 and 1000 people in my career, I think they're right -- I, too, have observed a disconnect between how polished people sound when they talk about their work and what happens when they actually have to write code. What we're actually comparing here, though, isn't coding vs. describing projects. I…
I've done a lot of work that people would probably find very interesting and useful. But I tend to choke on whiteboard code interviews because they're so high stakes. Any time spent thinking about the problem looks bad, so you have to talk a lot. But I can't really think and talk at the same time. So I end up talking rather than thinking and I do poorly.
Now obviously I'm going to push to move the status quo towards something that doesn't put me at a competitive disadvantage. So we both know that I'm biased.
But the idea that people can talk about what they've done and answer any questions that you have (about what they did and programming in general) but still screw up on the actual "coding" part might mean that the part where you make them write code is more noise than signal.
The problem is that you never find out because if someone bombs the coding part you simply chuckle and say "well that person is clearly a liar, or something!" and they don't go any further in the hiring process. So they never get hired, and because they're never hired, you can't evaluate their work performance. Which might be excellent when they're not being actively scrutinized by multiple people all at the same time in a high stakes situation.
Unfortunately to try and get some objective data on this you'd have to hire several people who talk about their projects well but don't do well on the coding part. An understandably impossible task unless your client is a Google or Microsoft and they know it's just a big experiment regarding hiring.
But until someone does that and reports back (and they won't because it'll be a competitive advantage) it's tough for me to swallow the "talks good but can't code so NOPE" that I tend to see bandied about.
Putting someone in a pressure cooker and then measuring their performance will only tell you how they perform in a pressure cooker. Which is usually quite distinct from what they're going to do day-to-day.
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#35> While AJ’s government work experience gave him a good amount of cred in the public sector, he found that making the move to industry, and startups especially, was near impossible. It wasn’t that he was blowing interviews. He just couldn’t get through the filter in the first place. ... > It was AJ, a candidate that Zouhair Belkoura, KeepSafe’s cofounder and CEO, readily admits he would have overlooked, had he come i…
I'm going through this right now as well. I ran my own business for 7 years, making content websites monetized through google adsense, building games, and freelancing, among other things. The primary source of revenue was adsense, and it paid the bills enough for me not to need a "real job" for years. 18 months ago, the adsense revenue started to dry up, and in an effort to make some additional income, I started look…
The fact that you can and did push change in public sector is huge, HUGE to anyone with half a brain. It's all in how you tell your story.
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#36We have the same belief in the limited usefulness of resumes at Triplebyte. We found talking about projects with candidates both more enjoyable and interesting than looking at words on a resume. Especially when people are enthusiastic about what they built. The difficulty we had was not seeing a strong correlation between talking about projects and doing well at programming during an interview.
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#37We have the same belief in the limited usefulness of resumes at Triplebyte. We found talking about projects with candidates both more enjoyable and interesting than looking at words on a resume. Especially when people are enthusiastic about what they built. The difficulty we had was not seeing a strong correlation between talking about projects and doing well at programming during an interview.
What is your programming interview like? If it's whiteboarding algorithms, it's likely to be eliminating a lot of good people who get nervous, and selecting for people who are good at studying interview questions and coding under pressure in an artificial environment. There is good evidence it doesn't predict job performance well, see: http://www.wired.com/2015/04/hire-like-google/ and https://twitter.com/mxcl/status…
Ultimately though people are aware they're being watched and assessed under timed conditions so it's going to be somewhat stressful. If we think someone is so nervous they're clearly not able to code at all, we'll offer a take home test as well before making a final decision.
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, regularly. Valley has a very short attention span. NG isn't in the list of hip sexy companies. Same goes with profiles from Cisco, VMWare, Intel, Synposys, IBM, and pretty much all the big companies that were pinnacles of business and your career at one point, but they are not considered hip anymore. Looking at Github profiles, however much people talk about it, also doesn't regularly happen. It's a chore to typ…
> And again, if you worked at NG, what possibly interesting things you could have done? Applicant: Well, I wrote a code to optimize a UAV flight path to avoid enemy radar and minimize fuel consumption, and debugged another controls code to prevent people from dying. Did some debugging on a computational electrodynamics code for radar simulations... Recruiter: Oh. You know what's cool? Photo sharing.
People extoll the virtues of a solid university COS degree, not because it explicitly teaches skills for industry, but because it creates a background to help new and novel problems. Certainly your previous work background provides a similar advantage.
If you can perform those tasks, certainly whatever the consumer-focused needs you can learn. As Aristotle said, "For the things we have to learn before we can do, we learn by doing."
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#39Seems your example changed the incentives, got useful information in return, and that led to a positive result. Unsurprising in hindsight. I'm going to send your article to a few people to see if I can get any to try that approach.
Re: What happens when you stop relying on resumes
#40Another great article from Aline. Past employers, schools, and GPAs can obviously generate false positives. I like this idea overall and would be interested in seeing the results of others. 400 applications to 1 hire isn't a great result, and I was somewhat surprised that only about 5% of applicants were even interviewed. A few months ago I launched a side project, doing (of all things) resume review and revision ser…
I can speak from my own experiences reviewing engineering candidates. Sometimes when you see someone's resume and they have great work accomplishments, like "last 4 years at [successful, engineering focused company], building their [product everyone knows about] platform", it makes deciding to interview that person fairly easy. However, there is that issue when someone is either just starting out from college, who do…
The "especially if they have been playing around with the languages/frameworks we use" comment hit home a bit. Part of that may be just the asset of exposure to those technologies the hiring company uses (hitting the ground not quite running), but I've had a few clients that seemed to use interest and curiosity in their languages/tools as an indicator of a likemindedness which was viewed as a strong positive. Particularly in the FP world.