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Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#151

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a good thing. However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would encourage you to do some…

The link you provided did not talk about the reasons for secession. It was about the legality of it from an American Constitutional perspective. Look at the top rated comment of this discussion on history.stackexchange.com. [1]

Secession was about preservation of slavery. I don't think there exists a cogent contrary argument.

[1] http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/553/why-did-the-s...

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#152
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're cutting your own throat when you dismiss freedom of speech.

Apparently so. It's interesting to watch though. Both my posts, while perfectly reasonable opposite viewpoints are getting down voted a lot. HN feels like reddit when you touch a nerve on freedom of speech. Crowd mentality/emotion seems to take over even in a group that is usually very logical and rational.

Free speech only applies to governments. Many people (not necessarily on HN) don't realize that.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#153
post #19

Why is everyone trying to erase history all of a sudden? Because somebody felt bad?

Regardless of what you think about the current reactions, they are not solely the result of someone feeling bad. They are the reactions to the murder of 9 innocent people by a white supremacist professing a genocidal desire. Now, whether this justifies this action or not is a different matter.

You must also think we need to ban all symbols of Islam because to the Sept 11th attacks.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flows -- particularly, of course, African Americans." If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. Many in the south had relatives that fought and died for the confederacy. It means something to them, but this doesn't seem to matte…

> If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended? > The confederate flag doesn't exist for the sole purpose of slavery. The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promo…

"The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended?"

If it's turned a specific way, it is the Nazi symbol. In Asia for instance (where I lived and studied for 5+ years), you will see the symbol all over the place. It is still a Buddhist peace sign in many other parts of the world and in fact, I have purchased multiple items online (and on Amazon) with the symbol on it.

I know plenty of people that purchase Chinese new year decorations and put them in their car with that symbol.

So, your example is flawed.

"The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promote slavery"

No it didn't. It existed to promote states' rights. Slavery is one of those rights (and the one brought up the most).

"This is certainly true in some places, but not everywhere. You see plenty of Muslim women in, e.g., the U.S. who do not cover their head"

You also see plenty of people with the confederate flag that do not support slavery. This is my point.

"And, in any event, this doesn't establish that Islam exists for the purpose of subjugating women to anything like the extent to which the Confederacy existed to promote slavery."

I don't see people with confederate flags creating laws that force African-americans into slavery. We do have examples of countries that force women to be partially covered (and in some instances, completely covered) and other extremely harsh laws like stoning if a woman gets raped (this is a real law btw.).

But it gets the magic pass, even though in some instances, supports the most vile and terrible human behavior.

So you support symbols of a religion that do in fact put people into slavery, by law. But you don't support a symbol that has done nothing of the sort for 100+ years.

"Google it. This is blatantly false."

This is the first time I've seen it on CNN or any main stream news site (and I read lots of news every day) and it was only after this incident that government officials needed to do anything about it. It must not have been a big deal before this incident.

*edit: This is why HN group think (and group think everywhere) is dangerous. I am trying to have an open an honest discussion about politics and I am silenced immediately.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a horse in this race - I'm a 'Northerner' who doesn't fly the Confederate flag and has never been a fan of people who do, but I never felt like it was my place to call others out. As such, I don't particularly take issue with the removal of the flag from public institutions. It's probably a good thing. However, I do take issue with narrow oversimplifications, and as such I would encourage you to do some…

The link you provided did not talk about the reasons for secession. It was about the legality of it from an American Constitutional perspective. Look at the top rated comment of this discussion on history.stackexchange.com. [1] Secession was about preservation of slavery. I don't think there exists a cogent contrary argument. [1] http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/553/why-did-the-s...

I think I agree with you on this point. The last answer attempts to provide some nuance but even at the root of those is...slavery.

I also think that I've seen a lot of rhetoric thrown around online and this is the first time I posted about it, so perhaps I was attempting to speak to the "flag symbolizes treason too" argument that you never made.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#157
Apple App Store is a private market and thus can legally take down any content they deem. The risk is Apple come off as tone-deaf and with such an over-reaching move. But still that may be a calculated negative impact as Apple has always been image conscience. They don't want to be the next target for the social media #takeitdown mob.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#158
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a Confederate battle flag there are lots of places you can buy one. If you feel they aren't available enough to your liking you are free to make one or even start selling them yourself. Walmart making a business decision to stop selling something that is racist has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It would also be a poor business decision to start selling ISIS flags, Nazi symbolism, those racist figu…

Why would Amazon refuse to sell the Confederate flag but not Nazi merchandise? http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/25/us-usa-shooting-so...

Where does it say Nazi merchandise is allowed on Amazon?

>EBay specifically bans their sale while Amazon bans the sale of "products that promote or glorify hatred, violence, racial, sexual or religious intolerance or promote organizations with such views."

Seems to me they both [generally] ban Nazi merchandise but have problems enforcing the ban.

Anyways, its irrelevant. Amazon can sell what it wants. That's a business choice they make. I don't care what they choose to sell, that is their choice.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#159
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flows -- particularly, of course, African Americans." If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. Many in the south had relatives that fought and died for the confederacy. It means something to them, but this doesn't seem to matte…

> I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Well, yeah, people did peep up. Georgia's flag had the Confederate battle flag on it from 1956–2001. We can presume that people gave a shit enough to change it. Furthermore the Confederate flag used to fly over the State House (I believe, or Capitol Building, can't recall exactly). Moving it next to the Civil Wa…

"This is beyond silly."

These are all a minority group of people that didn't like the flag. It didn't hit the main stream until this incident...ie: nobody cared.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your comment is really out of place here, because I don't think anyone here is arguing for what you're arguing against. Regardless, the Confederate Flag is something other than a symbol of overt racism. It is the emblem of the Confederate Army that is most recognizable to modern people. It's certainly because of that fact that the flag is also a symbol of overt racism. When presenting media of a historical ge…

There's a lot of talk about historical accuracy with regard to Apple's decision. Hence it's in context to post what exactly that flag represented to the people at the time of secession. When I lived in the South I never saw anyone other than white people flying that flag. It didn't represent pride to non-whites and the declarations of white people that it was part of their heritage went along with talk about 'those'…

Again, you're like completely ignoring that nobody is disputing the fact that the flag represented a racist ideology. I grew up around people who flew the flag like that, and yeah, they're universally racist assholes. In the North! Apparently they're too ignorant to even know what the Mason Dixon Line means.

But we're talking about depictions of the flag in dramatizations of the Civil War.

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