Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#111

Post by yincrash » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:21 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

No one is saying it isn't. It still represented the Confederate States of America in battle, so if you have a videogame trying to accurately represent a battle in the Civil War, "because it's racist" isn't a reason to make it historically inaccurate.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#112

Post by k-mcgrady » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:21 PM UTC

nsxwolf wrote: post #93

k-mcgrady wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true. I don't like the idea of being so rigid though. It seems like Americans stick to the idea of things like free speech or right to bear arms (basically constitutional ideas) without considering the fact they may not be right or times have changed. It's almost a religious zealotry as evidenced by the quick down voting of my post. NB (to everyone not noarchy): Down down vote things you disagree with - down vot…

You're cutting your own throat when you dismiss freedom of speech.

Apparently so. It's interesting to watch though. Both my posts, while perfectly reasonable opposite viewpoints are getting down voted a lot. HN feels like reddit when you touch a nerve on freedom of speech. Crowd mentality/emotion seems to take over even in a group that is usually very logical and rational.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#113

Post by yequalsx » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:22 PM UTC

norea-armozel wrote: post #103

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

Burying our head in the sand about the nature of our history won't make the racism we have today go away. If anything, it will aggravate it further as racists will find this a tool to promote their agenda.

Of course it won't make racism go away. Its banning has the positive effect of making overtly racist symbols less socially acceptable. It will aggravate anger amongst racists but I don't think it will spread said racism.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#114

Post by jrs235 » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

I see the Confederate flag primarily evoking three topics: states rights, slavery, and racism. All three were at stake with the Civil war. However, Mississippi's Declaration of Secession shows how racism, not just the "institution of slavery", was at the forefront of their desire to leave the Union. From their declaration, Mississippi probably wouldn't have been as/too upset about losing Irish slaves.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#115

Post by yequalsx » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

yincrash wrote: post #111

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

No one is saying it isn't. It still represented the Confederate States of America in battle, so if you have a videogame trying to accurately represent a battle in the Civil War, "because it's racist" isn't a reason to make it historically inaccurate.

Perhaps no one you know isn't denying that the Confederate flag represents slavery and racism but there are plenty of people who do deny this. Move to Mississippi to find plenty of such people.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#116

Post by pdabbadabba » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

paulhauggis wrote: post #96

pdabbadabba wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the comparison is fairly specious, frankly. There is a good argument to be made that the raison d'etre of the Confederacy was the subjugation of African Americans. Whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flown -- particularly, of course, African Americans. Islam, on the other hand, while associated to some degree wi…

"whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flows -- particularly, of course, African Americans." If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery. Many in the south had relatives that fought and died for the confederacy. It means something to them, but this doesn't seem to matte…

> If today's confederacy enthusiasts disagree, then it means the culture doesn't represent slavery.

What a symbol represents is not determined solely (or even primarily) by the intent of the person displaying it. The swastika on my forehead is a symbol of love and peace. How could you be offended?

> The confederate flag doesn't exist for the sole purpose of slavery.

The Confederacy surely did exist primarily to promote slavery, the flag in question is the symbol of the Confederacy. (Though I should have said "primary purpose" not "sole purpose.")

> Any woman involved in the religion has to keep their head covered

This is certainly true in some places, but not everywhere. You see plenty of Muslim women in, e.g., the U.S. who do not cover their heads. (Also, while I recognize that the discriminatory attitudes of many Muslims towards women run deeper than merely having them cover their heads, it's pretty funny that you're comparing this to slavery.) And, in any event, this doesn't establish that Islam exists for the purpose of subjugating women to anything like the extent to which the Confederacy existed to promote slavery.

> I don't ever remember even hearing a peep about people even giving a shit that it was for sale or flown. Not one person in government trying to get it removed or one article online (before this incident) wanting it removed.

Google it. This is blatantly false. (I agree that moves like Apple's decision today go too far, and may indeed be unprecedented. But certainly the general controversy is not at all new.)

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#117

Post by jrs235 » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:25 PM UTC

norea-armozel wrote: post #103

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

Burying our head in the sand about the nature of our history won't make the racism we have today go away. If anything, it will aggravate it further as racists will find this a tool to promote their agenda.

I concur, and I think it might be doing even more disservice as many will shortly be quick to say "Racism? Racism isn't a problem. We got rid of the Confederate flag."

By removing the visible signs of issues, you remove the easiest ways to talk about and educate others about the issue.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#118

Post by nmrm2 » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:26 PM UTC

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #86

nmrm2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, the issue isn't whether games are Art. The issue is that Apple wants a closer association/connection between their brand and the contents of the App Store, and they can get that association with Apps in a way that would be impossible with music or books. People already consumed music and books before the iPhone, but curated Apps were an entirely new thing. Something like "Want a huge catalog of high-quality Ap…

>People DO associate certain high-quality Apps with the iPhone [Citation needed]

I can't give you hard data.

But anecdotally, most people I know who own an iPhone and aren't Apple devouts chose it because "the software is better". I assume the typical consumer lumps Apps in with OS, because I doubt they are making purchasing decisions based upon the quality of the OS kernel or the quality of the background processes...

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#119

Post by baakss » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:27 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #109

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Confederate flag represents and evil institution The US flag represents slavery as well. We changed it to something more socially acceptable, but we moved it to the prisons, stocked it with racist laws, and to this day continue to profit off of forced labor. To say nothing of the slavery American countries profit off of by outsourcing. Of course, prison slavery isn't as bad. Instead of being born a slave if your…

I believe there is an important distinction between a country being founded overtly to preserve an evil institution and one founded with much better ideals but still does and has done many bad things. I don't think the U.S. flag represents slavery. There are instances where the U.S. government has conducted and endorsed slavery. The prison system is atrocious and I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if forced labor i…

I guess it would depend on who you ask.

Ask someone from that wedding party that gone attacked by a drone predator missile last year what the U.S. flag represents.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#120

Post by moron4hire » Thu, Jun 25, 2015, 3:28 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #76

Here is part of Mississippi's Declaration of Secession: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the…

I think your comment is really out of place here, because I don't think anyone here is arguing for what you're arguing against.

Regardless, the Confederate Flag is something other than a symbol of overt racism. It is the emblem of the Confederate Army that is most recognizable to modern people. It's certainly because of that fact that the flag is also a symbol of overt racism. When presenting media of a historical genre, to represent the Confederate Army, I think it's appropriate to use the Confederate Flag.