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Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#51

Post by hackuser »

I think it's great that Confederate symbols are being removed from government and commercial situations, but somehow it's different for Apple; they have too much power over what their users see and read (though I suppose the users can access whatever websites they want). Mobile apps and games are a significant social medium, and should include political expression. As a weak analogy, though I'm glad various governments may get rid of the flag, I'd very strongly oppose the government banning private citizens from owning them.

While what Apple says about privacy is admirable, end-user control is still a serious problem.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#52

Post by noarchy »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #45

I get the feeling a lot of people here don't understand how important and destructive symbols like this can be. As stupid as it sounds symbols like that can have a huge impact on society and free speech isn't always the solution. I don't know how corrosive this particular symbol is as I'm not from the states but in general it is completely understandable to me coming from a place where stuff like this is a huge deal…

>free speech isn't always the solution

>I'm not from the states

There's a cultural difference that rears its head here. Free speech in the US seems to be nearly-absolute when compared to even its northern neighbour (Canada), which has some provisions for "hate speech". Europe, from what I can see, is even more interventionist. I'm not using this post to argue for or against either perspective, but only to show that people from outside the US bring a very different perspective to the table, and it is reflected in their laws.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#53

Post by jordanpg »

All of the objections along legal and moral lines are missing the point. While those objections are valid in many cases, the point is that this flag is the symbol of the moment. A rough analogy is the way in which marriage equality has become a proxy for gay rights (whether this is accurate or not).

If the flag is shamed out of the public zeitgeist, in the same way that the n-word or the c-word have been, then that is a symbolic victory for those on the side of civil rights.

Whatever you think about the actual meaning or symbolism or historical context of the flag is beside the point.

Arguments about the importance of "heritage" fall flat because symbols do not teach history; they simply stand in for particular narratives.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#54

Post by Mithaldu »

DasIch wrote: post #50
Mithaldu wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only because the german government, like any government, is old and slow, and as of yet does not classify computer games as art, citing the interactive aspect as an enabler of contextual reinterpretation; AND because many foreign game creators simply censor themselves proactively instead of taking this matter to court. There is a very reasonable expectation of this changing at some point in the future.

The German government hasn't declared them not to be art either and as long as they haven't the real question is whether a court would consider them to be art. I think there is a very good chance that a court would consider them to be art but I don't see it coming to that anytime soon. A lot of gamers seem to be happy with versions that have these symbols replaced and everyone else simply imports them (which is as si…

In this interview the OLJB makes it very clear what their stance is: http://www.pcgames.de/Panorama-Thema-233992/Specials/Spiele-...

(Even though, imo, the dude outright lies by stating that their interpretation of the law is what the law factually says.)

Also, do note that i said at some point in the future.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#55

Post by Dirlewanger »

Zigurd wrote: post #32
crxgames wrote: post #20

This is ridiculous. I bet they leave Nazi WWII games.

This is, quite possibly, reasonable. As you point out, they probably approve WWII historical games with Nazi symbols in them. But they probably don't approve content that glorifies Naziism. So if you have content that wasn't similarly vetted regarding the CORRECTION: Army of Northern Virginia battle flag (not "stars and bars"), what can you do but de-authorize all of it and start over?

What can you do? How about not kowtowing to the outrage of the week and indiscriminately banning games because they have images of the flag? I don't think any of these games are glorifying the Confederacy.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#56

Post by involute1344 »

infimum wrote: post #21
ap3 wrote: post #11

Are Siri and the Wikipedia app next on the list ? I don't understand the ban on the historical apps - the civil war did happen and the confederate flag was used. Are nazi flags and symbols banned from ww2 games ?

yes, they actually are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Germany

Where is Apple mentioned on that page?

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#57

Post by pdabbadabba »

paulhauggis wrote: post #41

Political correctness has gone way too far in this country. When the Boston Bomber was on trial, there was a point made that his actions, because it was in the name of Islam, in no way reflects the actions of the entire religion or culture. Yet in South Carolina, the actions of one crazy person somehow now reflects on the entire culture and we need to remove the confederate flag. I don't see Amazon and Ebay removing…

I think the comparison is fairly specious, frankly. There is a good argument to be made that the raison d'etre of the Confederacy was the subjugation of African Americans. Whether today's Confederacy enthusiasts agree or not, the Confederate flag surely sends that message to many of those who see it being flown -- particularly, of course, African Americans.

Islam, on the other hand, while associated to some degree with terrorism (largely by the definition of "terrorism", some would say), surely does not exist for the express purpose of cultivating terrorism. Moreover, even to the extent Islam is associated with terrorism in the public consciousness, it does not also convey a message of hate to a particular minority group, as do symbols of the confederacy.

There will be people who disagree with both of these points, but I submit that the former point is much more compelling than the latter. And, more to the point, the public reaction simply reflects, I think, widespread agreement that this is the case.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#58

Post by salgernon »

Are they pulling all references to actual confederate States flags, or the army flag of Robert E Lee which more closely resembles the "confederate flag" used in racist contexts today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_Sta...

It seems like the solid flag is now pretty much only used For shock value and racist advertisement, without the historical content.

I liked what Dave Winer had to say about his experience with it:

http://scripting.com/2015/06/22/theConfederateFlagIsAHateCri...

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#59

Post by Zigurd »

vonmoltke wrote: post #47
Zigurd wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is, quite possibly, reasonable. As you point out, they probably approve WWII historical games with Nazi symbols in them. But they probably don't approve content that glorifies Naziism. So if you have content that wasn't similarly vetted regarding the CORRECTION: Army of Northern Virginia battle flag (not "stars and bars"), what can you do but de-authorize all of it and start over?

Nitpick: the "Stars and Bars" flag and the ANV battle flag are not the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_State...

Hardly a nitpick! That deserves a correction. "Stars and bars" is a commonplace misnomer. Army of Northern Virginia battle flag is probably the correct thing to call it.

Re: Apple Removes American Civil War Games from the App Store

#60

Post by k-mcgrady »

noarchy wrote: post #52
k-mcgrady wrote: post #45

I get the feeling a lot of people here don't understand how important and destructive symbols like this can be. As stupid as it sounds symbols like that can have a huge impact on society and free speech isn't always the solution. I don't know how corrosive this particular symbol is as I'm not from the states but in general it is completely understandable to me coming from a place where stuff like this is a huge deal…

>free speech isn't always the solution >I'm not from the states There's a cultural difference that rears its head here. Free speech in the US seems to be nearly-absolute when compared to even its northern neighbour (Canada), which has some provisions for "hate speech". Europe, from what I can see, is even more interventionist. I'm not using this post to argue for or against either perspective, but only to show that p…

Very true. I don't like the idea of being so rigid though. It seems like Americans stick to the idea of things like free speech or right to bear arms (basically constitutional ideas) without considering the fact they may not be right or times have changed. It's almost a religious zealotry as evidenced by the quick down voting of my post.

NB (to everyone not noarchy): Down down vote things you disagree with - down vote things that don't add to the conversation.

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