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The Population Bomb?

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Re: The Population Bomb?

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which implies an interesting statistic: the majority of people who ever lived, are still alive.

Doesn't work like that: http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleH...

That's interesting. An optimistic guesstimate assuming uniform growth from 50KBC. But humans have been boom and bust since then, with things like ice ages putting a monkey wrench in the works. I'm thinking it could have busted to 10M repeatedly through history.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every place is pretty much owned in America. Land is valuable. And there is admittedly little or no unspoiled land left. But don't blame houses. People in America still live on a tiny fraction of the land. Its all about farming and grazing and mining.

The Feds own most of the land. See chart "Federal Land as a Percentage of Total State Land Area" http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/04/the-ugly-facts-...

Sure, and they rent it out for grazing, mining. Still nothing like 'unspoiled'.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#33
post #21
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is too much with us indeed. Have you heard of Calhoun's mouse experiments? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experime... Maybe we are exhibiting the attitudes Calhoun observed in the "beautiful ones". Scary.

Fascinating read. Thanks.

Truly. The concept is depressing and liberating at the same time.

Here's a video on Dr Calhoun's "Mouse Utopia" experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

Re: The Population Bomb?

#34
India seems like a very poor example.

Instead look at Chad. It's had exponential population growth for decades without slowing. It's mostly young people. It's already flooding Italy with refugees.

I'm not convinced that "The Population Bomb" was wrong.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#35
post #7

Pure propaganda and manipulation. Guess it goes with the medium. If the worry is "not enough young people", what is the logical continuation? When we produce lots of young people now, and those become old, we need even more young people, and so on? So population growth is the only way forward? Not even mentioning that today fewer people are needed to take care of other people than in former times. For example one far…

> But again the question is, how do we want this to play out. We can let people be born and then starve to death, or we can not let them be born in the first place.

Exactly. It can also be argued that not reproducing is probably the most 'green' thing one can do.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#36
post #33
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating read. Thanks.

Truly. The concept is depressing and liberating at the same time. Here's a video on Dr Calhoun's "Mouse Utopia" experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM

Our Disneyland isn't going to be a ride in the park.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Feds own most of the land. See chart "Federal Land as a Percentage of Total State Land Area" http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/04/the-ugly-facts-...

Sure, and they rent it out for grazing, mining. Still nothing like 'unspoiled'.

Personally I don't necessarily care much about "unspoiled". I just wish there was a place I could legally go without paying tribute to the world machine and be free from outside interference with my mere existence.

EDIT: In fact living in a world where such a simple act is not possible isn't a bad definition of hell in my opinion.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#38
post #24

I think it is unhelpful to look at something like population in isolation from other deeply related issues, such as affluence, pollution per affluence, technology, unsustainable consumption of resources / production of pollution, changes in efficiency. For example, one simple way of modelling things is the `I=PAT` equation (see also the critique under "Reception") [0]. I'll quote from VHEMT [1]: > For example, in ter…

  > For example, in terms of energy consumption,
  > when a North American couple stops at two it’s
  > about the same as an average East Indian couple
  > stopping at 30, or a Bangaledesh couple stopping
  > at 97.
The Americans in this example behave like O(1) and the Bangladeshi as O(48.5^n). No matter the constants the Bangladeshis' resource consumption will eventually outstrip the Americans'.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and they rent it out for grazing, mining. Still nothing like 'unspoiled'.

Personally I don't necessarily care much about "unspoiled". I just wish there was a place I could legally go without paying tribute to the world machine and be free from outside interference with my mere existence. EDIT: In fact living in a world where such a simple act is not possible isn't a bad definition of hell in my opinion.

Well, there's all that federal land, right?

Personally I just walk out my door - I have 80 acres of rolling hills, trees, occasional waterways, deer, pheasant and miscellaneous critters. Bought by selling my quarter-acre in San Jose and relocating.

Re: The Population Bomb?

#40
post #38
post #24

I think it is unhelpful to look at something like population in isolation from other deeply related issues, such as affluence, pollution per affluence, technology, unsustainable consumption of resources / production of pollution, changes in efficiency. For example, one simple way of modelling things is the `I=PAT` equation (see also the critique under "Reception") [0]. I'll quote from VHEMT [1]: > For example, in ter…

> For example, in terms of energy consumption, > when a North American couple stops at two it’s > about the same as an average East Indian couple > stopping at 30, or a Bangaledesh couple stopping > at 97. The Americans in this example behave like O(1) and the Bangladeshi as O(48.5^n). No matter the constants the Bangladeshis' resource consumption will eventually outstrip the Americans'.

I can see what you are saying, but I think we can both agree that the literal interpretation of families with 97 children isn't particularly realistic.

A similar objection goes for asymptotic time horizons: we don't have infinite time to work with, this is reality, we have a handful of critical decades. Climate models are typically run to year 2100, where of course the world hasn't ended, but it's probably a +3.5C ... +4C ... scenario, so options are dramatically restricted, and continuing to diminish, for the surviving people.

Another way to think about the population would be to simply consider how we might expect the US and Bangladesh populations to change over a reasonable time horizon, to figure out how many person-years of consumption (and pollution) we get for each individual and half of their descendants.

Here are some parameters and assumptions for a rather simple model:

  Parameters:
                        Bangladesh      United States
  ----------------------------------------------------------------
  Fertility rate, births per woman    2.2 (y2013)     1.9 (y2013)
  life expectancy at birth, female    71 (y2013)      81 (y2013)
  life expectancy at birth, male      70 (y2013)      77 (y2013)
  life expectancy mf geom average     70.5            79
  average age of first child birth    18 (y2011)      25.4 (y2010)

This data in itself is pretty interesting! The fertility rate for both countries is similar (although on different sides of the 2.0 fence), but the "average age of first child birth" is very different!

  Simplifying assumptions:

    assume everyone in each country behaves the same:

    everyone lives until their birth life expectancy
    everyone has same number of kids
    uniform life expectancy
    divide birth rate by 0.5, everyone gives birth
    everyone has children at the same age

    all these parameters are stationary wrt time

These are pretty severe assumptions, obviously, but let's see where they take us.

Using these parameters, over a time horizon of 100 years, starting with a 0-year old US person, and a 0-year old Bangladeshi person, we obtain [0]:

  Bangladesh: 343.8 person-years of consumption
  United States: 214.7 person-years of consumption
If we multiply this by the country specific per-capita per-year rates of CO2 pollution, we get

  Bangladesh: 343.8 * 0.3 = 103.14 tons of CO2 pollution
  United States: 214.7 * 19.3 = 4143.7 tons of CO2 pollution
The US person (and their descendants), have contributed ~40x the CO2 pollution as the Bangladeshi person (and their descendants) over this time horizon!

We can compare this to a US person who has no children over the same time horizon:

  United States, no children: 79 * 19.3 = 1524 tons of CO2 pollution

If we extend the time horizon to look at a ridiculous 900 year period, then we get the following:

  Bangladesh: 71650.5 * 0.3 = 21495.2 tons of CO2 pollution
  United States: 1308.8 * 19.3 = 25259.84 tons of CO2 pollution
The single United States person (and their finite number of descendants) have still produced more CO2 pollution than the single Bangladeshi person (and their large and growing number of descendants)!

### What, if anything, can we conclude?

Over a time horizon of 100 years, a cartoon typical US person (and their descendants) will be responsible for about 40x the CO2 emissions as a cartoon typical Bangladeshi person (and their descendants).

A cartoon typical US person can reduce the CO2 emissions they are responsible for by around 60% if they make a decision to have no children, over a 100 years time horizon.

Over a 900 year time horizon, ridiculously assuming parameters to not vary over time, a cartoon typical US person will still be responsible for more CO2 emissions than a cartoon typical Bangladeshi person.

[0] via a hastily written python script: https://gist.github.com/fcostin/2225b2a51ad8859b5d1b

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