One of the things that keeps me going is a connection to nature & outdoors. When it gets severed or disrupted, perhaps by a move to a crowded area without access to trails and open spaces, I get very depressed. Looking at footage from the video, I would be very depressed living in such crowded conditions. Maybe even suicidal. I wonder if part of our ecological crisis is that people are so disconnected from nature, th…
The world is too much with us indeed. Have you heard of Calhoun's mouse experiments? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experime... Maybe we are exhibiting the attitudes Calhoun observed in the "beautiful ones". Scary.
The Population Bomb?
21–30 of 41 posts
Re: The Population Bomb?
#22Is this article meant to be sarcastic? The world population has quite literally doubled since 1968 when there were 3.5B people worldwide. Yes, the population has doubled since most of your parents were born.
Which implies an interesting statistic: the majority of people who ever lived, are still alive.
The Population Reference Bureau estimates that a total of 107 billion Homo Sapiens have lived (since 50,000 BC) [1].
[1] http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleH...
Re: The Population Bomb?
#23Is this article meant to be sarcastic? The world population has quite literally doubled since 1968 when there were 3.5B people worldwide. Yes, the population has doubled since most of your parents were born.
Which implies an interesting statistic: the majority of people who ever lived, are still alive.
Re: The Population Bomb?
#24I'll quote from VHEMT [1]:
> For example, in terms of energy consumption,
> when a North American couple stops at two it’s
> about the same as an average East Indian couple
> stopping at 30, or a Bangaledesh couple stopping
> at 97.
Maybe energy consumption is a bit abstract - it is not immediately obvious what, if anything, is wrong with that. Instead we could consider per-capita CO2 pollution, taking the 2005 statistics from Wikipedia [2]: United States: 19.3 tonnes CO2 / (person year)
Bangladesh: 0.3 tonnes CO2 / (person year)
From these numbers, a 1 additional US person has the same immediate short-term impact in terms of CO2 pollution as about 64 additional Bangladeshi people [2].CO2 pollution produced by humans is primarily the cause of recent global warming. If the current trend in greenhouse gas pollution continues to track the high end of (conservative) IPCC baseline models [3] then it will not be surprising if we end up with a world that is +3.5C -- +4C -- or more higher than baseline, by the year 2100 (from memory, we're already at about +0.6C this year). It really doesn't look like we will limit the temperate increase to the "agreed 'safe'" +2C in the real world, outside of modelling scenarios[4].
It doesn't appear that the world has experienced a temperature of +4C for quite a long time (either hundreds of thousands or millions of years, depending on which graphs you look at)[5][6]. The last time it was that warm certainly pre-dates human agriculture (~12000 years ago) [7], and perhaps the human species (100s of thousands of years ago)[8]. I.e., we are rapidly pushing the climate toward a state where humans and human civilisation have never previously existed. The result will likely be unpleasant, in the sense that many people will suffer and die, due to heat stress, natural disasters, reduced crop yields, disease, and conflict caused by displaced people / resource shortages [9][10].
I have focused here on climate change in isolation, but that is just the first hurdle. Other serious concerns are human impacts upon biodiversity and the nitrogen cycle - and those are just the impacts that we're able to measure [11]. There's reasonable evidence that the world is currently experiencing a period of mass extinction [12].
So -- bringing it back to population. From the perspective of everyone else alive right now, assuming they are well informed and rational, should they think it is a good idea for me to have a child, particularly if I live in an affluent, polluting society[13]? I doubt it very much.
Of course, it isn't all grim. There is still time for us all to get better at being altruistic, thinking clearly, predicting the future, cooperating, changing our minds about what might be important, and modifying our environment (for better or worse). But, at best, it is obviously a race between positive and negative trends. There is not much time left. But, from historical evidence, so far the metrics of biodiversity and CO2 pollution are very much going in an undesirable direction, with no sign yet of change.
edit: I'll finish by quoting David MacKay out of context. He is talking about the UK's sustainable energy debate [14]:
> We need to choose a plan that adds up. It is possible
> to make a plan that adds up, but it’s not going to be
> easy.
>
> We need to stop saying no and start saying yes. We need
> to stop the Punch and Judy show and get building.
I pretty much agree with this sentiment in the realm of sustainable energy, and I'd also agree with the sentiment if it were extended much more broadly, beyond MacKay's intended context, to questions of population, affluence, equality, poverty, intergenerational fairness, and how economies should be run.[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT#Reception [1] http://www.vhemt.org/demography.htm [2] we're glossing over the fact that some of these additional people might choose to have children, or that annual per-capita CO2 pollution could change. [3] For 2014 data, see figure 3 (a) of https://www.lakeheadu.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/53/outl... [4] http://www.rtcc.org/2015/06/19/is-avoiding-2c-of-global-warm... [5] http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GlobalWarming/page... [6] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/All_pala... [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Human [9] http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/11/18/Climate-... [10] http://www.eci.ox.ac.uk/4degrees/ [11] See figure 6 of: http://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... [12] http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jenny_Mcguire/publicatio... [13] assuming they don't have some kind of interest in driving down the cost of labour in the short term, to reduce the labour cost of producing this season's model of useless widget. [14] http://www.withouthotair.com/c32/page_250.shtml
Re: The Population Bomb?
#25One of the things that keeps me going is a connection to nature & outdoors. When it gets severed or disrupted, perhaps by a move to a crowded area without access to trails and open spaces, I get very depressed. Looking at footage from the video, I would be very depressed living in such crowded conditions. Maybe even suicidal. I wonder if part of our ecological crisis is that people are so disconnected from nature, th…
Re: The Population Bomb?
#26The population bomb went the same way as every other doom and gloom scenario - no where, people just ignored it till the zealots finally shut up. too many people? too little food? do people even realize how much land in this world isn't being used for people or food? most issues with food and population are caused by politics and usually bad politics. population numbers didn't cause the issues, greedy and power hungr…
This is a bit like saying that the people causing panic over Y2K were unwarranted because everyone checked their systems and sorted it out in advance. If nobody had panicked about it, then nothing would have been done.
There has been a major, coordinated effort to give women family planning information and technology worldwide, along with economic and social change. Efforts against overpopulation have been a common theme of development planning.
Re: The Population Bomb?
#27One of the things that keeps me going is a connection to nature & outdoors. When it gets severed or disrupted, perhaps by a move to a crowded area without access to trails and open spaces, I get very depressed. Looking at footage from the video, I would be very depressed living in such crowded conditions. Maybe even suicidal. I wonder if part of our ecological crisis is that people are so disconnected from nature, th…
In Canada you can just camp out on crown land. We have so much extra space its mind boggling.
Re: The Population Bomb?
#28Is this article meant to be sarcastic? The world population has quite literally doubled since 1968 when there were 3.5B people worldwide. Yes, the population has doubled since most of your parents were born.
Which implies an interesting statistic: the majority of people who ever lived, are still alive.
Re: The Population Bomb?
#29Pure propaganda and manipulation. Guess it goes with the medium. If the worry is "not enough young people", what is the logical continuation? When we produce lots of young people now, and those become old, we need even more young people, and so on? So population growth is the only way forward? Not even mentioning that today fewer people are needed to take care of other people than in former times. For example one far…
> When they get overpopulated, some members simply had to get into a canoe and paddle away, to die on the sea alone.
This was an example of a society which had developed bottom-up knowledge and management of population levels. As well as cases of "virtual suicide", as described, there were also traditions dictating which siblings were allowed to have children, and which were not. From memory, they also developed appropriate agricultural practices to not damage their limited available productive land.
In my opinion, this society developed a successful reaction to the limits of their environment, although some aspects of it might seem very confronting or perhaps even unethical to us in other societies.
On a personal note, in a strange way I found it was peaceful to read "Collapse", to learn that there have been many civilisations that have collapsed in the past -- civilisations that were in some sense more successful (by lasting for a longer period) than the civilisation I am part of.
Similarly there is a sense of peace in learning more about the non-human parts of natural history. It's not all about us.
Re: The Population Bomb?
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not overcrowded, just spread out too thin. The reason the US looks like it looks is that everybody wants an acre of land around their house, so they chop down forests and build suburbs instead. If people gave up on that notion and where willing to live in cities then there would be an abundance of unspoiled nature.
Every place is pretty much owned in America. Land is valuable. And there is admittedly little or no unspoiled land left. But don't blame houses. People in America still live on a tiny fraction of the land. Its all about farming and grazing and mining.
See chart "Federal Land as a Percentage of Total State Land Area"
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2014/04/the-ugly-facts-...