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Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

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Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#221

Post by crdb »

developer1 wrote: post #219
crdb wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"these tests allow the company to burn a lot of a candidate's time, but not the other way around " Oh yes the other way around. At a previous employer, two of us took 3 full time months to review over 100 qualified candidates (i.e. that returned the task) to make 10 offers. We made an offer to anybody who met our standards - whilst management initially restricted our headcount, they allowed us to expand the team as g…

> the main restriction ended up being the maximum salary we were allowed to offer (which had us have to give up on half a dozen candidates) Ugh. I've been in a similar position, assisting with pouring over candidates. The worst part about salary being the limiting factor is you've quite literally wasted your time weeding through the poor candidates to find the honest-to-goodness best to hire - only to not be allowed…

Well, in theory, you could just put the actual maximum salary on the ad, but there's rarely a fixed budget in practice.

If someone is very junior or has some other discount factor (in practice that's the only real one), you'll probably go lower than expected for a 30 year old with a PhD, freeing budget to bump up someone else.

And sometimes, you get a stellar CV with enough brand on it to make the staunchest McKinsey reconsider his limit policy, so whilst you can't put the number on the ad, you can warn the candidate, get his number, and take a punt on management in case it might work.

The strongest factor for flexibility is when you have a chance to affect the outcomes for the company, but need to prove it before you can claim the pay raises. Then, it makes sense to take somebody at under their market rate, and 3 months later have a chat with management and bump up.

Hiring is a really sensitive topic because HR is often the biggest budget. I once seriously weakened my political position by attempting to automate away "Excel blue collar workers" in another department, which would have lowered the budget and therefore relative power of their boss internally. Those with the most flexibility in hiring (startups, which have no established internal territory to worry about) also have the least resources...

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#222

Post by developer1 »

tomtang0514 wrote: post #169
lockes5hadow wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in C I would point out that the compiler will likely make such a trivial optimization for you. That was clearly a company full of morons.

Regardless of the compiler, let's say (x Some interviewers (not just the "homework") raise their bar by not allowing you to make any tiny mistake. And I just don't get it. If someone is good enough to write something like a lite version of Hacker New website in hours, I'm not going to turn him/her down because of such mistake.

What the hell. A developer who writes x If I found bit shifting in an interview code sample as a replacement for basic multiplication, I would ask the developer why they chose to do it that way. They'll either a) calmly explain that their computer science classes taught it that way or it's a habit they've adopted after writing code for embedded systems or similar where the optimization actually made a difference, or b) their ego will make an appearance with a "because I'm so senior" attitude. The latter is not a good sign.

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#223

Post by developer1 »

crdb wrote: post #221
developer1 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the main restriction ended up being the maximum salary we were allowed to offer (which had us have to give up on half a dozen candidates) Ugh. I've been in a similar position, assisting with pouring over candidates. The worst part about salary being the limiting factor is you've quite literally wasted your time weeding through the poor candidates to find the honest-to-goodness best to hire - only to not be allowed…

Well, in theory, you could just put the actual maximum salary on the ad, but there's rarely a fixed budget in practice. If someone is very junior or has some other discount factor (in practice that's the only real one), you'll probably go lower than expected for a 30 year old with a PhD, freeing budget to bump up someone else. And sometimes, you get a stellar CV with enough brand on it to make the staunchest McKinsey…

> it makes sense to take somebody at under their market rate, and 3 months later have a chat with management and bump up

Another strategy too commonly used by poorly run companies. If you feel someone will be worth $X more in only 3 months, they are worth paying that from the start. Kick the employee to the curb before their probation ends if they don't meet your expectations for the full salary. These games some companies will play ("we'll hire you at $x and then in 3 months we promise you'll get another $x") is despicable manipulation of employees' trust.

I worked for one company that did this to any new hire that was a pushover (they tried with me, I only accepted after constant back and forth for "HR approval" of my expected salary which was average market rate at the time). The gimmick is that nobody automatically got the promised raise at 3 months, and nearly everyone who went to fight for it never received it. An employee had to have already embedded themselves deeply enough into a product and be considered a "hero" in order to receive anything. The result was that the great developers would leave after being stabbed in the back, leaving the least talented people in play.

Suffice it to say, I don't even negotiate for salary or vacation time anymore. I request $x and X vacation days, and if the first offer comes back with anything less, I give them one chance to fix it. If the second offer is still shortchanged, I drop them. Unless you are desperate to find a position for financial reasons or you need your first job in the industry, these games being played during the hiring process are a strong indication as to the quality of the employer in general.

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#224

Post by poikniok »

vonmoltke wrote: post #84
michaelvkpdx wrote: post #72

Most of the problems of coding interviews can be solved by good reference checking. Code problems in isolation will never expose how a developer will do when faced with real-world issues, users, QA, and teammates. Why are people so afraid to pick up the phone and talk to references? I'm always happy to give out my references, and always delighted to talk about the good devs I've worked with, with specifics about what…

> Why are people so afraid to pick up the phone and talk to references? First, references are chosen by the candidate, so they are almost universally expected to say good things. Second, many companies explicitly prohibit their employees from giving meaningful references about former employees. Relying on a process that needs people to violate company policies or to have moved on from the role wherein they worked wit…

Not to mention that in the industry I am in people will tell you the exact opposite about people. It makes sense, you want your worst people to work for competitors, and your best people to not.

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#225

Post by crdb »

developer1 wrote: post #223
crdb wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in theory, you could just put the actual maximum salary on the ad, but there's rarely a fixed budget in practice. If someone is very junior or has some other discount factor (in practice that's the only real one), you'll probably go lower than expected for a 30 year old with a PhD, freeing budget to bump up someone else. And sometimes, you get a stellar CV with enough brand on it to make the staunchest McKinsey…

> it makes sense to take somebody at under their market rate, and 3 months later have a chat with management and bump up Another strategy too commonly used by poorly run companies. If you feel someone will be worth $X more in only 3 months, they are worth paying that from the start. Kick the employee to the curb before their probation ends if they don't meet your expectations for the full salary. These games some com…

"poorly run companies" "strong indication as to the quality of the employer"

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment ;)

I think your strategy makes sense and once one has enough experience and market value to make it work (after all, better be underpaid than unemployed), should be the default to adopt. It also shows strength and signals value to the prospective employer.

FWIW, most of those who came in got a raise later. I put my career on the line every time (and one too many, in the end). Didn't ingratiate me with management but it was my word (not HR's) and I stood by it. If I had one criticism to make to your otherwise accurate comment it is that it is not a company but a person you are going to work for, and one should align with people who share one's values.

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#226

Post by bbcbasic »

dsp1234 wrote: post #194
tomtang0514 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen several companies giving out such homework to me or my friends back in college. And to be honest, none of the are among the "great culture company list" people are talking about. Beside all the issues you mentioned above, those tests don't have a clear PASS line. You spent hours on that and can be rejected for no reason. Back in college I've done a code challenge from Box and my solution ranked No.1 in thei…

(Obviously no one has ever agreed my term so far.) My company does 4 hour work-product tests, and we pay each of the candidates for their time. We're in Portland, not SV, so maybe there is a difference in environment.

As a candidate I think the bodes so well for the culture and how respectfully people would be treated in such an organisation.

It shows a level of thought about people that goes beyond ping-pong tables and free pizza and coke (and ironically probably costs less than those things).

Let me guess ... you are happy working there right?

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#227

Post by mjfisher »

bbcbasic wrote: post #212
tomtang0514 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen several companies giving out such homework to me or my friends back in college. And to be honest, none of the are among the "great culture company list" people are talking about. Beside all the issues you mentioned above, those tests don't have a clear PASS line. You spent hours on that and can be rejected for no reason. Back in college I've done a code challenge from Box and my solution ranked No.1 in thei…

I have had an interview where both the (x * 8) and (x << 3) would have been frowned upon, for using a "magic number".

Good, I think? It wouldn't be a deal breaker at interview for me (or even something we test for, come to think of it), but they were right in that it is a magic number. Unless you are doing something where the context is so perfectly obvious that number should be an 8, it's better off tagged as a constant so the next dev to come along has a better chance of understanding your code.

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#228

Post by phillmv »

crdb wrote: post #225
developer1 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it makes sense to take somebody at under their market rate, and 3 months later have a chat with management and bump up Another strategy too commonly used by poorly run companies. If you feel someone will be worth $X more in only 3 months, they are worth paying that from the start. Kick the employee to the curb before their probation ends if they don't meet your expectations for the full salary. These games some com…

"poorly run companies" "strong indication as to the quality of the employer" You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment ;) I think your strategy makes sense and once one has enough experience and market value to make it work (after all, better be underpaid than unemployed), should be the default to adopt. It also shows strength and signals value to the prospective employer. FWIW, most of those who ca…

I been reading your comments. You write well, normally now is when I'd be looking up your twitter.

Re: Three hundred programming interviews in thirty days

#229

Post by crdb »

phillmv wrote: post #228
crdb wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"poorly run companies" "strong indication as to the quality of the employer" You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment ;) I think your strategy makes sense and once one has enough experience and market value to make it work (after all, better be underpaid than unemployed), should be the default to adopt. It also shows strength and signals value to the prospective employer. FWIW, most of those who ca…

I been reading your comments. You write well, normally now is when I'd be looking up your twitter.

Thank you, and I don't really have one. I'm a fan of long form, I think many ideas are complex and high dimensional and suffer from too much summarising. Plus, HN is relatively anonymous. I think I'm relatively easy to doxx, but the people I don't want reading my comments are people who don't read HN, although I think they know to do a Google search by now. Plausible deniability FTW.

Maybe another year or two and I'll have the balls to sign what I write.

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