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I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

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Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#81

Post by solve »

bdcravens wrote: post #75
solve wrote: post #2

The slavery-like dynamics of the immigration system is a surprising mismatch, versus the typical American business culture. For comparison, I've spent time in a few countries where a slavery-like relationship with employers is completely expected and even supported by the employees. (Culture shock!) They imagine that it's the only way that businesses can function. This isn't the type of business culture you want to l…

> a slavery-like relationship with employers is completely expected and even supported by the employees Actually, that sounds like America's start-up culture

What are the penalties for trying to leave it? I think that that's the defining factor, for what we're talking about here.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#82

Post by shas3 »

bane wrote: post #80
shas3 wrote: post #68

The US legal immigration system is perfectly described by the adjective, Kafkaesque. In terms of the arbitrariness of bureaucracy, it has more in common with what I saw in the socialist days of India and what one reads in books by Solzhenitsyn and Kafka. The iniquities have been discussed repeatedly in popular press, with almost no changes wrought in the process. Many years ago (yes, 2011 was 4 years ago) Newsweek ra…

Part of the problem with improving the system is that there's simply no incentive. Immigration reform almost entirely centers on managing undocumented/illegal immigrants. Law Makers don't have to listen to petitions from people outside of the country let alone their own jurisdictions. The other part is that people who've suffered through the process don't turn around and try to fix it, I remember when my wife was goi…

Even if the objective is to limit immigration, the rules are arbitrary. Like bureaucracy in general, it is also counterproductive to the economy. Skilled immigrants, after all aren't like industrial pollution or worker safety or pharmaceutical drugs to be deliberately doomed to bureaucratic labyrinths.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#83

Post by vezzy-fnord »

surge wrote: post #61
JoshTriplett wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a welfare system only works because people are culturally indoctrinated/shamed away from using it, then it's broken by design. Sure, it would be nice to have a culture in which people are disinclined to be supported by charity unless they absolutely need it (though that kind of shaming can also push people to avoid it even when they do need it). But at the same time, if that cultural disinclination is the only con…

That's how a functioning society works, you're shamed away from unnecessarily doing lots of things that create a burden on others. Littering for example. It creates a burden on society to clean up after others. There isn't shame in using welfare as a safety net, its there to catch you from following in to absolute destitution from which there is no climbing out of in many cases. There is shame or stigma with staying…

you take money from other areas that need it like healthcare, parental leave, education, etc.

That's a truism. Investing money in one sector necessarily means it doesn't go to another. All that money spent on education is one that isn't going to space research, but most people would find that sort of statement abhorrent.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#84

Post by crimsonalucard »

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

Moral imperatives do not always correlate with survival imperatives. I'm not going to say whether or not I believe in immigration, but there are two things I will say:

1. Arguments against immigration stem not from moral imperatives, but from survival instinct.

2. If we open up immigration, America as we know it will change dramatically, in either a good or bad way. I think what we have now is already pretty good, so why change the status quo?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#85

Post by murbard2 »

tlb wrote: post #44
murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

There's no strong lobby against more high-skilled immigration. But as sometimes happens in US politics, the uncontroversial reform is held hostage to the controversial one. In particular, lobbying groups for and against having an official status for the millions of currently undocumented Mexicans in the US have opposed any immigration bill that doesn't include what they want. Lawmaking does not allow cherry-picking b…

Very interesting take, thanks! That is probably what's going on. I wonder what other examples there are of such policies.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#86

Post by Flimm »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #84
murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

Moral imperatives do not always correlate with survival imperatives. I'm not going to say whether or not I believe in immigration, but there are two things I will say: 1. Arguments against immigration stem not from moral imperatives, but from survival instinct. 2. If we open up immigration, America as we know it will change dramatically, in either a good or bad way. I think what we have now is already pretty good, so…

You seem to be talking exclusively about the survival of the American economy, rather than then the survival of humankind.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#87

Post by fernandotakai »

nicolas_t wrote: post #52

I work for customers in the US as a software consultant (paid at New York rates) but because of the hassle and difficulties to get a visa there, I do not live there. This means that I get money from the US but I do not reinject it in the economy, I also do not pay taxes in the US. I'm a net loss for this country all because of the visa policies.

same. i work for us companies but i contribute 0 to us economy while contributing a lot to local economy.

scratch that -- i contribute a little by traveling to the us every once in a while (on vacations).

and even that visa, business/vacation was a big pain in the ass to get because for the us gov't i was going to stay in the us forever and ever because i happen to do work for american companies. i had to show the us gov't a ton of documents (from my marriage certificate to my tax returns and bank statements) to prove that not only i lived here but i also would go back.

and you know what the guy that was interviewing me said at the end of the visa interview? "i'm going to trust you". even after showing a ton of documents, it came to that -- a guy trusting me or not.

(btw, my wife also got her visa but it was way easier. she basically showed my passport with my visa and entry stamps and they said "ok!")

(btw 2: i was never more scared in my life than when i went to us for the first time. the border control point inside the airport was just insane, it felt like i was going to get arrested and deported at any time. there, i also had to provide a good reason for coming into the us + show the border control office my plane tickets, hotel reservation, money i had with me, credit card statement... otherwise i would get deported).

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#88

Post by bane »

shas3 wrote: post #82
bane wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with improving the system is that there's simply no incentive. Immigration reform almost entirely centers on managing undocumented/illegal immigrants. Law Makers don't have to listen to petitions from people outside of the country let alone their own jurisdictions. The other part is that people who've suffered through the process don't turn around and try to fix it, I remember when my wife was goi…

Even if the objective is to limit immigration, the rules are arbitrary. Like bureaucracy in general, it is also counterproductive to the economy. Skilled immigrants, after all aren't like industrial pollution or worker safety or pharmaceutical drugs to be deliberately doomed to bureaucratic labyrinths.

I would strongly support massive expansion of the lottery system (and the reserve on advanced degrees), and have written my local congresspeople about it in the past.

I do this knowing that it may even result in driving down wages in STEM fields. Because I think it's too important over the long-term.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#89

Post by kzsee3 »

pierotofy wrote: post #6

Yes the immigration system is broken; it's difficult to obtain sponsorship from an employer. But I feel like the author gave up after asking the few places where he worked. Sometimes you need to try harder.

It's difficult for the reasons stated by the author. You have to convince an employer to sponsor your H1 befor you even start working for them. Also, they need to apply for your visa and hope it comes through before you start work.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#90

Post by fennecfoxen »

Symmetry wrote: post #69
worklogin wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is broken. But you cannot have open borders and a welfare system. It is completely unsustainable.

It's more sustainable if you have US style welfare where benefits are things like wage subsidies, for a limited duration after employment, or in kind in some way like Medicaid or food stamps. EDIT: I think I should point out that the tradeoff is that this way of doing welfare is less efficient but requires less trust.

Sure you can... you just have to not extend those benefits in full to new migrants. Europe seems slowly moving in that direction in response to this exact problem, though it's not straightforward as the current jurisprudence seems to regard this as an infringement on EU citizens' freedom of movement.
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