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Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

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Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#11

Post by theaiguy »

justinpaulson wrote: post #10
sudo_free_cake wrote: post #2

This is why people not trained in CS shouldn't speculate on it, when they do you get garbage like this. The brain performs computation, it is by definition a computer. Before modern computers there was a human job, called, computer. One who performs computations. The analogy of the brain to a computer is perfect, because the brain is a computer.

Except the author does in fact have a BS in CS. IMO, the brain does far more than performing computation. Sure humans were once "computers," but our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation. You failed to look up the author's credentials and I feel like you may have also failed to read the…

> the brain does far more than performing computation

In your opinion? Can you be more specific, and give examples of things the brain does that are not computable?

This is trivially true in some senses, neurones have analogue responses, that the biology does a good (but not perfect) job of thresholding. But then, the same thing can be said of transistors. It's just we're able to engineer their analogue responses out much more successfully than evolution has. It is also true that the brain is connected to a much broader system which is undoubtedly analogue (i.e. the body), but then again, it isn't clear that isn't true of any non-abstracted computer.

Comparing theoretical and idealised computing to embodied brains might feel insightful, but it doesn't actually resolve any of the real issues in the philosophy of AI.

Also, a BS in CS isn't a good minimum qualification for competency in the philosophy of AI. I wouldn't read much into that.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#12

Post by UK-AL »

justinpaulson wrote: post #10
sudo_free_cake wrote: post #2

This is why people not trained in CS shouldn't speculate on it, when they do you get garbage like this. The brain performs computation, it is by definition a computer. Before modern computers there was a human job, called, computer. One who performs computations. The analogy of the brain to a computer is perfect, because the brain is a computer.

Except the author does in fact have a BS in CS. IMO, the brain does far more than performing computation. Sure humans were once "computers," but our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation. You failed to look up the author's credentials and I feel like you may have also failed to read the…

Computers can simulate electrical and chemical interactions, given enough computational power could you not simulate it at that level?

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#13

Post by justinpaulson »

theaiguy wrote: post #11
justinpaulson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the author does in fact have a BS in CS. IMO, the brain does far more than performing computation. Sure humans were once "computers," but our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation. You failed to look up the author's credentials and I feel like you may have also failed to read the…

> the brain does far more than performing computation In your opinion? Can you be more specific, and give examples of things the brain does that are not computable? This is trivially true in some senses, neurones have analogue responses, that the biology does a good (but not perfect) job of thresholding. But then, the same thing can be said of transistors. It's just we're able to engineer their analogue responses out…

I was mainly commenting on the OP's position that the author was 'not trained in CS'.

Here is a list of things I believe that the human brain performs outside of computation:

The irrational motivations that take us over when we feel love. The way that our mood can affect a decision. Taking a walk to enjoy the beauty of the sunset. Writing a satirical short story to express a political fallacy. Painting an image that we saw in a dream. Using metaphors to explain an idea or to validate an argument. Telling a joke and understanding why it is funny. Buying a shirt because it looks cool.

There are many more. But to me, there is definitely more to the mind than simple computation. There is a quality to our experience that is completely lost when our inputs and outputs are equated to the workings of a digital computer.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#14

Post by justinpaulson »

UK-AL wrote: post #12
justinpaulson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the author does in fact have a BS in CS. IMO, the brain does far more than performing computation. Sure humans were once "computers," but our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation. You failed to look up the author's credentials and I feel like you may have also failed to read the…

Computers can simulate electrical and chemical interactions, given enough computational power could you not simulate it at that level?

But that simulation still ignores a certain qualia that has grown from our existence. There is something else happening that we don't understand and I think it is a bit short-sighted to assume that we can simulate it, definitely not now, and possibly never.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#16

Post by pjungwir »

sudo_free_cake wrote: post #2

This is why people not trained in CS shouldn't speculate on it, when they do you get garbage like this. The brain performs computation, it is by definition a computer. Before modern computers there was a human job, called, computer. One who performs computations. The analogy of the brain to a computer is perfect, because the brain is a computer.

It seems like you are the one speculating . . . about the author's credentials.

Also, the fact that thinking includes computation does not imply that computation includes thinking. There is a strong case that the brain is a computer, but really no one knows. Even if the brain is 100% material, there are people who argue it cannot be simulated on a computer. In part what we're talking about is the Church-Turing Thesis, which is still just a conjecture.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#17

Post by [deleted] »

theaiguy wrote: post #11
justinpaulson wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the author does in fact have a BS in CS. IMO, the brain does far more than performing computation. Sure humans were once "computers," but our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation. You failed to look up the author's credentials and I feel like you may have also failed to read the…

> the brain does far more than performing computation In your opinion? Can you be more specific, and give examples of things the brain does that are not computable? This is trivially true in some senses, neurones have analogue responses, that the biology does a good (but not perfect) job of thresholding. But then, the same thing can be said of transistors. It's just we're able to engineer their analogue responses out…

[deleted]

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#18

Post by yew »

justinpaulson wrote: post #10
sudo_free_cake wrote: post #2

This is why people not trained in CS shouldn't speculate on it, when they do you get garbage like this. The brain performs computation, it is by definition a computer. Before modern computers there was a human job, called, computer. One who performs computations. The analogy of the brain to a computer is perfect, because the brain is a computer.

Except the author does in fact have a BS in CS. IMO, the brain does far more than performing computation. Sure humans were once "computers," but our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation. You failed to look up the author's credentials and I feel like you may have also failed to read the…

. . . our ability to perform computation is not a valid argument to that computation, or the inner workings of our mind, being the same as digital computers performing computation.

No one [1] thinks that the human brain is likely to be a digital computer performing arithmetic on fixed-width binary integers and IEEE floating-point numbers. The argument for AI is simply that the mind appears to be a material object and the laws of physics appear to be Turing-equivalent. If that holds, the mind is provably equivalent to a Turing machine (or, less likely, some less powerful class of automaton). Arguing about whether in fact that does hold, as Penrose does, can be justified (though I personally think Penrose lost the plot years ago). Arguing about whether your preferred model for categorizing abstract ideas renders the argument inconceivable, with no reference to experimental results or formalisms, can not.

[1] Feel free to add your preferred qualifiers here. The existence of people who believe tobacco companies are run by lizard-people has no bearing on whether cigarettes cause lung cancer.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#19

Post by palosanto »

"If we achieve artificial intelligence without really understanding anything about intelligence itself then we will have no idea how to control it."

Exactly. It's fascinating/scary to me how people still talk about A.I. or machine consciousness when we basically have no idea how consciousness works in general.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#20

Post by theaiguy »

justinpaulson wrote: post #13
theaiguy wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the brain does far more than performing computation In your opinion? Can you be more specific, and give examples of things the brain does that are not computable? This is trivially true in some senses, neurones have analogue responses, that the biology does a good (but not perfect) job of thresholding. But then, the same thing can be said of transistors. It's just we're able to engineer their analogue responses out…

I was mainly commenting on the OP's position that the author was 'not trained in CS'. Here is a list of things I believe that the human brain performs outside of computation: The irrational motivations that take us over when we feel love. The way that our mood can affect a decision. Taking a walk to enjoy the beauty of the sunset. Writing a satirical short story to express a political fallacy. Painting an image that…

Ultimately these arguments come down to qualia. But there is no reason to think qualia is a) present in other brains except your own, but b) not present in any non-brain information processing system. Philosophers of mind have tried to make that argument, but end up appealing to intuition.

In terms of computability, folks like Boden and Sloman showed in the 90s that emotion is compatible with computability. Even more so, that emotion is implementable in symbolic computation. Of course, one could declare such systems have no qualia of emotion. But can you do more than declare that, while not simultaneously creating arguments that could apply to other brains?

I get you are working on intuition. But there's fifty years of actual research been done on this. Waving your hands and appealing to your 'humble opinion' isn't how scholarship works.

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