Live data from Hacker News

Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

chronicle.com

41–50 of 149 posts

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#41
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the liquidy is caused by changing social norms among workers and workers taking advantage of better work opportunities and how much is caused by an unstable job market(with unions losing power) caused by CEOs? Mass layoffs were not always a "thing." They are traumatic to those who get layed off and those who witness layoffs of their friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors without getting layed off them…

I think it has as much to do with a corporate shift away from pensions and other considerations for long-term employees. For my entire professional career I've been warned that there is no one else looking out for me but me. There will be no pension when I retire, and no social security, I'm told. So I have to maximize what I earn and what I save now in order to survive later. Is it any wonder then that my generation…

The shift away from pensions is caused mainly by laws (e.g. ERISA) requiring companies to properly account for them. Defined benefit pensions are both extremely expensive and very risky, but companies were allowed to hide these losses and risks off the balance sheets in the past.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/15/sorry-folks...

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#42

For the most part, bonding agreements ("you can't leave for X years without repaying us for your training") are considered exploitative and usually not legally enforceable. As a result, a business can't pay to train it's own work force - if a business invests $20k in training and $80k in salary, there is nothing stopping another employer from offering $90k in salary after training is complete. If an investment can't…

> For the most part, bonding agreements ("you can't leave for X years without repaying us for your training") are considered exploitative and usually not legally enforceable.

Extremely common in the UK :(

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if a business invests $20k in training and $80k in salary, there is nothing stopping another employer from offering $90k in salary after training is complete. And nothing stops the first business from raising the employee's pay to $91k. Why should they expect to keep paying the same salary to someone they've made more valuable? They already amortized the costs of training over the value added by the employee in the…

Then the total cost to the first business for this employee is $111k. The cost to the second business (who provides no training) is $92k to beat the first company's offer. It's a losing proposition to provide training - you get the same labor at a higher cost. In contrast, if you simply pay $100k to trained employees, and employees can pay for training out of pocket, you preserve the cost structure (big caveat: I'm i…

> if you simply pay $100k to trained employees

Assuming 1) you can find trained employees, and 2) they are willing to work for $100k. If the value of the trained employee is $111k, then why would they work for $100k except for ignorance of their value?

This is my big problem with STEM shortage parrots and with labor as a market in general: ideal candidates are rare, and, in general, willingness to spend more or train up is pretty low. On the other hand, anecdotally businesses seem willing to wait months or years for that ideal candidate to come along and fail to balance the gigantic opportunity cost lost with the cost to train.

It's economically not as simple as what I'm describing, but that's sorta my point. I rarely see anyone in labor market discussions (especially around STEM or highly skilled workers) include the opportunity cost of an unfilled position.

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#44

One possible solution is cognitive screening - the use of tests such as the Wonderlic, SAT/ACT, or Wechsler to find prospective employees who can learn quickly and have good critical thinking skills (and thus would benefit the most from on-site training for technical tasks. training obviously costs money), but unfortunately something called 'disparate impact' makes this difficult to implement, so employers instead ha…

> The 'logic' is if the tests expose a reality that isn't politically correct, we must do away with the test Untrue. The logic is if there is a disparate impact against a legally-protected class, such that the test would be a convenient cover for illegal discrimination, and you allow discrimination using the test without demonstration of relevance, it becomes an easy, obvious, and effective tool for those looking for…

Strangely, we are unwilling to apply that same logic to traditional hiring processes. I.e., few companies have ever done a study (sufficient to win in court) to prove that their subjective human opinion-based tests do not have a disparate impact. Yet processes like this are somehow allowed.

I.e., if my subjective human hiring technique is biased, you need to prove I discriminated on purpose. If my objective, IQ-based technique is biased, I need to prove I didn't. Why this disparity?

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#45

For the most part, bonding agreements ("you can't leave for X years without repaying us for your training") are considered exploitative and usually not legally enforceable. As a result, a business can't pay to train it's own work force - if a business invests $20k in training and $80k in salary, there is nothing stopping another employer from offering $90k in salary after training is complete. If an investment can't…

Your argument rests on an assumption that an employee produces nothing of value while learning. If they are performing useful work while learning, then the salary paid to them isn't being wasted.

How true this is depends on the field and subject matter, but surely any entity will tend to see their own specifics as basic things anyone should already know even though the field is actually much larger.

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#46

For the most part, bonding agreements ("you can't leave for X years without repaying us for your training") are considered exploitative and usually not legally enforceable. As a result, a business can't pay to train it's own work force - if a business invests $20k in training and $80k in salary, there is nothing stopping another employer from offering $90k in salary after training is complete. If an investment can't…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_handcuffs How would training followed by a bonding period be considered differently than other mechanisms inducing employees to stay? Could these other mechanisms also be legally questionable? E.g. some San Francisco Bay Area technology companies offer large (~$20k) signing bonuses to new uni graduate hires that the employee must return if she leaves within her first year at the…

Hard to say, but if banned it seems like that sort of a signing bonus could simply be retraced by issuing a signing bonus that only vests after one year. And of course, the hire could probably finaigle a loan against it to have it basically be the same as the original intent, except with a middle man taking out interest.

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#47
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_handcuffs How would training followed by a bonding period be considered differently than other mechanisms inducing employees to stay? Could these other mechanisms also be legally questionable? E.g. some San Francisco Bay Area technology companies offer large (~$20k) signing bonuses to new uni graduate hires that the employee must return if she leaves within her first year at the…

Yeah, I heard about companies who pay for college - as long as you stay one year after your last class. If not you have to pay them back. Actually, just pay back just the tuition you spent in the last year.

When I started my first job out of college in 2001 the way the company did it for my masters program was to give interest free loans to cover the cost, then forgave that loan balance over the course of a few years (forget how long).

I got my masters degree and then stayed at the company for a year and a half before leaving. At which point I had to pay back the remaining loan balance.

Worked pretty well for the situation, but that would only work if the cost of training wasn't exorbitant and the worker pay was relatively high. I believe I was making $58k when I left and had to pay $8k or so to repay the loan. Doable for me, but not necessarily so for a lot of people.

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'logic' is if the tests expose a reality that isn't politically correct, we must do away with the test Untrue. The logic is if there is a disparate impact against a legally-protected class, such that the test would be a convenient cover for illegal discrimination, and you allow discrimination using the test without demonstration of relevance, it becomes an easy, obvious, and effective tool for those looking for…

Strangely, we are unwilling to apply that same logic to traditional hiring processes. I.e., few companies have ever done a study (sufficient to win in court) to prove that their subjective human opinion-based tests do not have a disparate impact. Yet processes like this are somehow allowed. I.e., if my subjective human hiring technique is biased, you need to prove I discriminated on purpose. If my objective, IQ-based…

> Strangely, we are unwilling to apply that same logic to traditional hiring processes.

Untrue.

> I.e., few companies have ever done a study (sufficient to win in court) to prove that their subjective human opinion-based tests do not have a disparate impact.

When an employment practice -- including a subjective, human-based tests -- does have a disproportionate impact against a protected class, and actions under it are challenged under anti-discrimination law, companies do have to prove that the practices are sufficiently related to the specific job being hired for that the disproportionate impact is not unjustified. IQ tests are not different in this regard.

They are different in that:

(1) the evidence of disproportionate impact is well-established and ready to use, and

(2) unlike most companies' other hiring practices, there is very little on the surface to show a trier-of-fact that it is related to the specific job duties, so tying it to the specific job duties takes a lot of work -- and, in fact, the places where they have been used and challenged are largely the kinds of places where studies have shown them least relevant to job performance.

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#49

One possible solution is cognitive screening - the use of tests such as the Wonderlic, SAT/ACT, or Wechsler to find prospective employees who can learn quickly and have good critical thinking skills (and thus would benefit the most from on-site training for technical tasks. training obviously costs money), but unfortunately something called 'disparate impact' makes this difficult to implement, so employers instead ha…

It isn't about political correctness (this word has really lost its meaning lately) its about eliminating tools that companies use to illegally discriminate against a protected class. It depends on its intent and its effect. The company must demonstrate the job requirement that has a disparate impact is job-related and consistent with business needs. A strength test might have a disparate impact on women and those with disabilities but that's ok as long as the job actually requires heavy lifting.

Tests have been used as a tool to weed out the undesirables, this is a fact. Look at literacy requirements for voting, for example. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't be facing this issue.

That being said - its a huge can of worms that needs more clarifying. It has a spotty judicial history, to put it lightly.

It is also questionable that requiring a college degree for many jobs is actually legal anyway and it is consistent with precedent such a practice is actually illegal.

Griggs v. Duke Power was a big Supreme Court case in this area. The Duke Power Company had explicitly segregated its workforce when it was legal to do so reserving the low paying jobs for blacks and the high paying jobs for whites. When it became illegal to do so they changed "you have to be white" to "you have to have a high school diploma or pass an IQ test."

Duke lost the case.

See here: http://www.popecenter.org/commentaries/article.html?id=3118

>Furthermore, the company’s lawyers argued, the legislative history of the Civil Rights Act clearly showed that it was not intended to interfere with bona fide aptitude testing, widely used in business at that time. During Senate debate on the bill, opponents argued that it could be used to attack employment testing, which had in fact occurred in a case in Illinois involving Motorola. A state official had ruled the company’s testing illegal under state law because it was “unfair to disadvantaged groups.”

>Bill sponsors, including Senator Hubert Humphrey, replied that nothing in the language of the statute could be construed that way, but to head off objections, they included a new section, 703(h). That makes it legal for an employer to use a “professionally designed ability test” if it is not “designed, intended or used to discriminate….”

>You might think the Court would have ruled in Duke Power’s favor. Wrong—it ruled unanimously against it. The justices ignored the legislative history and gave deference to the federal agency charged with enforcing the law, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

>But there was also a delayed consequence. With actual intelligence testing now an invitation to costly litigation, “many employers made the college degree a de facto intelligence test and focused only on hiring applicants who possessed it.”

>O’Keefe and Vedder raise that question: “If challenged, could employers who have set the college degree as a requirement show that it has anything at all to do with ‘business necessity’ or are ‘job related’? That is very doubtful.”

>Suppose that someone who’d been turned away from a sales job for lack of college degree took the company to court, claiming that its educational requirement had a disparate impact, screening out people who could succeed in the job. That would appear to be a strong case.

>I have never heard of such a case, attacking an employer’s college degree requirement on disparate impact grounds. But nothing would more rapidly deflate the college bubble than if the Court were to hear such a case and rule consistently with Griggs.

Intention doesn't match with reality. Honestly, we need to revisit the issue and so something differently. However, political correctness has nothing to do with it.

(I am also not convinced such tests actually have much to do with intelligence anyways...)

Re: Business Can Pay to Train Its Own Work Force

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'logic' is if the tests expose a reality that isn't politically correct, we must do away with the test Untrue. The logic is if there is a disparate impact against a legally-protected class, such that the test would be a convenient cover for illegal discrimination, and you allow discrimination using the test without demonstration of relevance, it becomes an easy, obvious, and effective tool for those looking for…

Strangely, we are unwilling to apply that same logic to traditional hiring processes. I.e., few companies have ever done a study (sufficient to win in court) to prove that their subjective human opinion-based tests do not have a disparate impact. Yet processes like this are somehow allowed. I.e., if my subjective human hiring technique is biased, you need to prove I discriminated on purpose. If my objective, IQ-based…

>Why this disparity?

For the simple fact that we already have evidence that some protected classes perform worse on IQ tests. Therefore, simply by using an IQ test you are discriminating against a protected class. The burden is on you to prove that the discrimination is necessary. No one needs to prove that discrimination is happening because you are using a test that has already been show to be discriminatory.

Interview based hiring techniques are much more varied than IQ tests, and they have not been shown to be near universally discriminatory. Therefore the burden is first to prove that discrimination is happening in the particular situation.

Post reply on HN