Live data from Hacker News

Flawed climate data

financialpost.com

31–40 of 40 posts

Re: Flawed climate data

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you. I really really wanted to read (for example) "An observationally based energy balance for the Earth since 1950". However, all of the references to it that I can find are stuck behind paywalls, despite the paper having been authored primarily by NOAA scientists. I fully support spending tax dollars on scientific research. That said, I think that the results of this particular bit of research have already…

I'd download it. I think the idea of a "napster of academic research" is a great idea, fwiw :)

An academic friend of mine pitched that to me as a product idea (for me to develop; not him), but I chickened out thinking of the legal issues.

Also: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/25/mendeley-snags-2-millio...

Re: Flawed climate data

#32

Surely the flabbergasting thing is not whether this proves or disproves GW but that scientists are allowed to flat-out refuse to release the raw data they used to generate results.

A collection of raw data is full of systematic errors, accidental mistakes, misleading black swans, and false trails (some of which get followed for years before they finally turn out to be false). I've seen several talented, well-trained, and highly experienced scientists fool themselves for decades with their own raw data. That's why it is called raw . That's why you have to analyze data, over and over, until you c…

A collection of raw data is full of systematic errors, accidental mistakes, misleading black swans, and false trails (some of which get followed for years before they finally turn out to be false). I've seen several talented, well-trained, and highly experienced scientists fool themselves for decades with their own raw data.

I've done a lot of data cleaning over the years, some of it geological. Yeah, there are usually some problems. But I've never had one that I couldn't resolve. Your post implicitly assumes that only one or the other can be published. Not true. As a condition of receiving grant money, document and publish ALL raw data and any cleaned data, in addition. The interwebs still has a few bits left to hold the extra.

Re: Flawed climate data

#33
post #21

This McKitrick guy is like a cockroach that keeps poping back up. Not only are there TONS of datasources besides the tree ring proxies that he is so obsessed with ( http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/ ), his specific claims have been rejected many times including by peer reviewed sources such as Nature. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/myths-... http://www.realclimate.org/index.php…

These links are informative as the article itself without knowing Ross McKitrick's past form is quite persuasive. However on reflection it does seem extremely unlikely that the 20th century climate record was based on the cores of just 10 trees.

Re: Flawed climate data

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate scientists rely on (at least, but not limited to) oceanic temperature measurements, satellite measurements, and worldwide ground temperature measurements for current data modeling. Historical data sources include ice cores, tree ring data, geological data (e.g. evidence of past glacial activity), and coral analysis. To some extent, human sources can also be used for historical data -- journals and old weather…

And what do the other data sources say about temperature in comparison to the tree data?

I'm glad you asked!

The first thing we have to acknowledge is that paleoclimatology yields century-term trends; it's not able to tell us the precise local temperatures of a given day 500 years ago, for example.

So what climate scientists do is establish "ranges of uncertainty"; their graphs and data show that, given the raw data, the reconstructed temperature was somewhere between Y1 and Y2 for a particular hundred-year period.

After comparing the reconstructions, going as far back as a.d. 1000, scientists are finding that every source of paleoclimatic data that they can come up with is showing that current temperatures are well above historical temperatures, even after taking the uncertainty into account.

That is, this century is the warmest global century since a.d. 1000, even if all of the paleoclimatic data were interpreted as warmly as possible.

They don't agree precisely in the shape of the graph -- glacial studies show a slightly different-shaped graph than borehole studies do, for example -- but the aggregate graphs do all agree on a warming trend over the last century.

However, in geological terms, a warming trend over a thousand-year period is not that big of an indicator. So what happens if we go back further?

There is a paper [1] which uses data from several other studies to reconstruct temperature deviations at 20 different global locations over a 2000-year period. It argues that the statistical methods used in other paleoclimate models are flawed, and uses a different statistical method which concludes that, in the absence of tree ring data, the Medieval Warm Period (approx. 950 a.d. to 1250 a.d.) was warmer than the current century.

I don't have the necessary background in statistics to be able to analyze the two different methods. However, even if we take that paper at face value, 2000-year data is still not geologically significant.

So, we turn to Antarctic ice cores. Specifically, data from the Vostok ice core sample shows a clear 150,000 year warming and cooling cycle, going back about 400,000 years ago (with increasing uncertainty).

At first glance, someone might think that this is damning evidence in the case for AGW. However, the recent thousand year period is a mere blip on a graph stretching back 400,000 years, so it's difficult to see the part that has climate scientists really concerned:

The amount of CO2 currently in the atmosphere, and reconstructed over the last thousand years, is dramatically greater than at any other point in the last 400,000 years. Specifically, CO2 concentrations have peaked at around 300 ppmv during the 150,000 year cycle, but are currently at around 383 ppmv.

To put this in perspective, the difference between the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere now, versus the amount in the peaks of the last 400,000 years, is close to the same as the difference between the peaks and the troughs.

So while the Earth clearly does have its own warming and cooling cycle, we have induced a dramatic change in the cycle, which should lead to some interesting results.

(Further reading: "Surface Temperature Reconstructions for the Last 2,000 Years", free download at http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11676)

[1]: http://www.ncasi.org/publications/Detail.aspx?id=3025

Re: Flawed climate data

#35
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe in the free availability of all publicly-funded research papers . And I'd be prepared to argue for the free availability of raw data as well, if we lived in a world where it wouldn't be cherry-picked by axe-grinders and used for character assassination. I don't think we live in that world. Maybe someday.

"[...] if we lived in a world where it wouldn't be cherry-picked by axe-grinders and used for character assassination." Unfortunately, that is exactly the current problem as well, without the data being available. The article this discussion is keyed off of Flawed climate data ( http://www.financialpost.com ) which argues pretty convincingly that the AGW researchers cherry-picked their data to show the "hockey stick.…

I would rather see raw data released, too. However, mechanical_fish certainly has a valid point.

For example, there's currently a bit of a tiff among some climate scientists over whether the statistical methods used to produce the "hockey stick" graphs are mathematically valid. These other scientists use different statistical methods which produce a different graph, and they argue that there's no intrinsic reason why the "hockey stick" method is better.

However, the "hockey stick" graphs correlate much more closely with CO2 measurements. If this other method is valid, then there needs to be an explanation of the divergence between temperature and CO2, which otherwise has been assumed to be closely related.

Given this disagreement among actual scientists, I can imagine the raucous noise produced when a whole bunch of armchair scientists get ahold of "raw" data and say, "Aha! Your data doesn't match your graphs! We're yanking your funding!"

Re: Flawed climate data

#36
post #30
post #21

This McKitrick guy is like a cockroach that keeps poping back up. Not only are there TONS of datasources besides the tree ring proxies that he is so obsessed with ( http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/data-sources/ ), his specific claims have been rejected many times including by peer reviewed sources such as Nature. http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/myths-... http://www.realclimate.org/index.php…

The released e-mail reveal that the peer-review process was hacked. And, since that e-mail also shows that realclimate is one of the participants in the supression of contrary views from the beginning, citing it as evidence now is ....

Ok this is preposterous. If the entire peer-review process was "hacked" we can't trust any climate science? I guess all that science must be thrown away with the coal companies' refuse water.

Re: Flawed climate data

#37
Ah yes, The Financial Post. The newspaper I turn to for all of my climatological analysis. It's like International Journal of Climatology, but with better op-eds and stock listings.

Re: Flawed climate data

#38
post #36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The released e-mail reveal that the peer-review process was hacked. And, since that e-mail also shows that realclimate is one of the participants in the supression of contrary views from the beginning, citing it as evidence now is ....

Ok this is preposterous. If the entire peer-review process was "hacked" we can't trust any climate science? I guess all that science must be thrown away with the coal companies' refuse water.

> If the entire peer-review process was "hacked" we can't trust any climate science?

Pretty much. We don't know how the data was adjusted and the original data seems to be unavailable. Given that, what's to trust? Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but without data....

There is other data, from folks that disagree with the CRU folks....

Re: Flawed climate data

#39
post #38
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok this is preposterous. If the entire peer-review process was "hacked" we can't trust any climate science? I guess all that science must be thrown away with the coal companies' refuse water.

> If the entire peer-review process was "hacked" we can't trust any climate science? Pretty much. We don't know how the data was adjusted and the original data seems to be unavailable. Given that, what's to trust? Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but without data.... There is other data, from folks that disagree with the CRU folks....

f u hope you get ebola

Re: Flawed climate data

#40
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what do the other data sources say about temperature in comparison to the tree data?

I'm glad you asked! The first thing we have to acknowledge is that paleoclimatology yields century-term trends; it's not able to tell us the precise local temperatures of a given day 500 years ago, for example. So what climate scientists do is establish "ranges of uncertainty"; their graphs and data show that, given the raw data, the reconstructed temperature was somewhere between Y1 and Y2 for a particular hundred-y…

Thanks! Great reply.
Post reply on HN