Going undercover as a sex worker • Hacker News Board

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#41

Post by antris » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 9:56 AM UTC

danparsonson wrote: post #33

belorn wrote: post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

Many (most?) of the women involved in these situations don't go there out of choice or with full knowledge of what they're getting involved in; they're either lied to and subsequently trapped, sold by their families (which is where poverty is a big factor, and certainly is not a choice made by the girls themselves), or outright kidnapped. That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coa…

> That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coal mine may not feel like they have much choice but as you say they are agreeing to the work. Of course this is not to say that some men aren't likewise tricked or forced into such jobs but they too are victims.

They pull the same tricks on men too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6yoBcEXwmQ#t=3m58s

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#42

Post by danparsonson » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 9:57 AM UTC

pcthrowaway wrote: post #34

danparsonson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many (most?) of the women involved in these situations don't go there out of choice or with full knowledge of what they're getting involved in; they're either lied to and subsequently trapped, sold by their families (which is where poverty is a big factor, and certainly is not a choice made by the girls themselves), or outright kidnapped. That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coa…

If their choice is to watch themselves or their families starve or die of disease, or to go to a likely death in terrible work conditions where they can at least help their families with the money they earn, it's not really much of a choice at all.

Quite right but it is still a choice, they at least have some agency. I'm not in any way attempting to downplay the awful situations we're discussing, but there is still a significant psychological difference between "I'm doing this to make my life and my families lives better" and "This is being done to me against my will for other peoples' benefit", is there not?

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#43

Post by ishener » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 9:58 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #21

ishener wrote: post #16

The big elephant in the room that it is politically incorrect to discuss: human trafficking happens because of Muslims and because of Islam. Recognizing this fact will help fight it, for example by closing Europe to Muslims.

Actually most of the human trafficing in Europe and Asia has nothing at all to do with Muslims. Not to mention human trafficing in the US and Latin America...

that's incorrect

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#44

Post by danparsonson » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 9:59 AM UTC

antris wrote: post #41

danparsonson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many (most?) of the women involved in these situations don't go there out of choice or with full knowledge of what they're getting involved in; they're either lied to and subsequently trapped, sold by their families (which is where poverty is a big factor, and certainly is not a choice made by the girls themselves), or outright kidnapped. That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coa…

> That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coal mine may not feel like they have much choice but as you say they are agreeing to the work. Of course this is not to say that some men aren't likewise tricked or forced into such jobs but they too are victims. They pull the same tricks on men too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6yoBcEXwmQ#t=3m58s

Indeed; another example would be construction workers in Dubai - I seem to remember an article linked on here a few years ago about that.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#45

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 9:59 AM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #5

I worked with the author, Mimi, at UC Berkeley and she took enormous risks in the Middle East and Moldovia for the sake of getting her story. Several others did as well including my two collegues who spent two years locked up in Iran after being lured across the border while reporting in Iraq. Funding for investigative journalism has all but completely dried up, due to disruption for Silicon Valley and other factors.…

[deleted]

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#46

Post by netcan » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 10:00 AM UTC

smorrow wrote: post #26

anon3_ wrote: post #18

"Human trafficking" is a deceiving word. It is all too often used by people on the payroll of these organizations. It invokes imagery that doesn't anywhere near equate reality. I advise you to avoid puff pieces, find the truth in actual journals and save your compassion for things on a case-by-case basis. For those who aren't aware, there is another side to the story. There are many people who inflate these statistic…

This is a perfectly valid comment until it's proven wrong. I don't think it should be "LA LA LA I'm not list-en-ing"-downvoted.

No it isn't.

First of all, it is weaselly. It is saying that "there is a counterargument" without actually making it.

Then, it sort of vaguely draws the conclusion that because there are instances of lying related to human trafficking in the world, the whole concept of human trafficking is a lie. That's like taking the case of a false rape claim and encouraging everyone to understand that women lie about rape.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#47

Post by 127 » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 10:07 AM UTC

chronial wrote: post #28

dagw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In countries where prostitution is accepted and legal, it's safer for both the sex workers and the customers, with less risk of disease and abuse. Do you know any good studies that back this up. While I certainly want to believe it and it does fit nicely with my own general political/economic narrative of the world, I've yet to find any conclusive evidence for it.

Unfortunately, it is not true. In germany prostitution was legalized a few years ago and what mostly happened was a massive increase in it. The situation of prostitutes barely improved and human trafficking went up. But you have to keep in mind that that is also the effect of only one country doing it. What would happen if the whole EU legalized prostitution is a different question.

Seems to me that the real issue is pimping and how difficult it is to control.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-traffickin...

The women go there knowing that they will trade sex for money. What they do not know is how difficult and exploitative the work is.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#48

Post by bruceb » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 10:08 AM UTC

ameen wrote: post #40

logical42 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one puzzled by this comment?

You shouldn't be. I'm a Muslim and I've dealt with numerous such individuals painting Muslims as backward and illiterate. Muslims are the scapegoat of this generation, as the Jews, Blacks were before them. Their entire worldview is constructed of an us vs. them ideology rather than understanding that we're fundamentally the same regardless of our ethnicity/faiths/inclinations/etc.

Saying dumb things like that (now flagged) post is yes dumb.

That being said religion is not the same as race. Clearly people do believe different things. Most of the time with a little understanding conflict can be avoided. But some difference are real and then yes it is a us vs them.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#49

Post by skrebbel » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 10:15 AM UTC

jahnu wrote: post #14

corin_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation in the Netherlands is also a lot more complicated. Drugs are not largely legal at all, they're largely illegal. In fact, they're entirely illegal, there's just a gray area when it comes to a few soft drugs (pretty much just weed now - and I believe truffles in some head shops possibly... but no longer mushrooms.) Bringing weed into the country: still technically illegal. Other drugs: very much illegal.…

I find it insane that coffee shops in NL still have to source their weed from the black market.

It is. You can run a "legal" business, but still have to deal with the mob on your back door. I know someone who quit running a coffeeshop for only this reason.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#50

Post by netcan » Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 10:17 AM UTC

danparsonson wrote: post #42

pcthrowaway wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If their choice is to watch themselves or their families starve or die of disease, or to go to a likely death in terrible work conditions where they can at least help their families with the money they earn, it's not really much of a choice at all.

Quite right but it is still a choice, they at least have some agency. I'm not in any way attempting to downplay the awful situations we're discussing, but there is still a significant psychological difference between "I'm doing this to make my life and my families lives better" and "This is being done to me against my will for other peoples' benefit", is there not?

I disagree.

The line between consensual, coerced or exploited are sometimes vague but they are real. It's like the pornography line. It's vague, some things are grey, it's culturally contextual but it is a real line. people usually know it when they see it.

When extremely disempowered, poor and desperate people interact with much richer, more powerful people who see them as just a means to an end and are completely contemptuous of their humanity (their dignity, their desires..), we cannot call this agency. If a university teacher dates a student or a boss dates an employee, we view it with suspicion because we know that dynamic can be abusive, though it is not necessarily so.

Sometimes things are what they seem. Sometimes a name on a dotted line or other symbol of agency means nothing. If you find a dozen girls from rural moldova living in an Istanbul basement, making almost no money, ostracized by society and another group of people making the money and the decisions… I think it's prudent to assume what seems obvious.