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Going undercover as a sex worker

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31–40 of 236 posts

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#31
post #26
post #18

"Human trafficking" is a deceiving word. It is all too often used by people on the payroll of these organizations. It invokes imagery that doesn't anywhere near equate reality. I advise you to avoid puff pieces, find the truth in actual journals and save your compassion for things on a case-by-case basis. For those who aren't aware, there is another side to the story. There are many people who inflate these statistic…

This is a perfectly valid comment until it's proven wrong. I don't think it should be "LA LA LA I'm not list-en-ing"-downvoted.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claims. There's very little value here as there's no substantiating evidence, but rather 'I could elaborate', which in itself just sounds like an attempt to spread disinformation. If you can elaborate then please do, otherwise you're not adding anything.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I could elaborate Please do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaly_Mam is an example.

Of course someone would do that. People will do all kinds of shit for money, and it's especially disheartening when people fraudulently profit from a cause that involves fighting financial interests. But, you know, you'll find these fuckers everywhere. Anywhere where there's any kind of money, and quite a few places where there's none, you'll find frauds. Frauds prove nothing about the kind of people that they pretend to be.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#33
post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

Many (most?) of the women involved in these situations don't go there out of choice or with full knowledge of what they're getting involved in; they're either lied to and subsequently trapped, sold by their families (which is where poverty is a big factor, and certainly is not a choice made by the girls themselves), or outright kidnapped. That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coal mine may not feel like they have much choice but as you say they are agreeing to the work. Of course this is not to say that some men aren't likewise tricked or forced into such jobs but they too are victims.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#34
post #29

When reading works like this one I tend to find three stories being merged into one. It focuses on slavery where most of the evil aspects of humans tend to come out, as in order to reduce a human person into something that can be traded, everything that gives that person a social context must be torn down. This is where the "break down" period comes from and it's a common theme in everything from the African slave tr…

Many (most?) of the women involved in these situations don't go there out of choice or with full knowledge of what they're getting involved in; they're either lied to and subsequently trapped, sold by their families (which is where poverty is a big factor, and certainly is not a choice made by the girls themselves), or outright kidnapped. That's the difference in your man vs. woman scenario - someone working in a coa…

If their choice is to watch themselves or their families starve or die of disease, or to go to a likely death in terrible work conditions where they can at least help their families with the money they earn, it's not really much of a choice at all.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#35
post #30
post #13

What makes me very uncomfortable is that are enough men that not only not care about, but actually enjoy rape to make it a huge market. This is not something that happens "between two consenting adults". If you read the article you'll see that there is no way in hell that they don't know what they are participating in. In fact many seek out the worst treated girls. There looks to me that there are more than one type…

The sad truth is that rape (like many disturbing behaviours including murder and child abuse) is entirely natural, it's not actually aberrant behaviour. Of course we're capable of recognizing it as harmful behaviour we would rather not see happen, but that's a matter of "ought" not "is". I think the best bet at preventing rape is education and empathy (violence becomes more difficult if you can relate to your victim)…

I agree with that rape itself is natural. And there are many instances in which even consenting sex is more exciting because it contains rape fantasies like calling the other one nasty names, hurting each other, bondage games etc. Stories like 50 shades of grey show that it is not just a male instinct to rape but also a female instead to be conquered. Power and sex are hard to separate.

Education and empathy is a really strong step to fight rape, I also believe that. I remember to have been reading that seeing and understanding another person's pain can result in us having the same emotional reaction as when experiencing the pain ourselves. Therefore increasing empathy might make the experience of raping someone as unpleasent to the rapist as for the victim.

I don't believe in that we are able to stop trafficking people, drugs, or anything else. When there's demand there are people who want to deliver. But it's true, when there are two impossible task at hand, which could you choose? I also don't believe that it's possible to break that sex-power relationship which results in rape.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#36
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation in the Netherlands is also a lot more complicated. Drugs are not largely legal at all, they're largely illegal. In fact, they're entirely illegal, there's just a gray area when it comes to a few soft drugs (pretty much just weed now - and I believe truffles in some head shops possibly... but no longer mushrooms.) Bringing weed into the country: still technically illegal. Other drugs: very much illegal.…

While i'm not sure whether legalization or the Swedish approach works best(criminalization of purchase), but if we want to prevent trafficking, maybe it's possible to use some sort of lie detector(standard, fmri, P300), etc - and ask girls whether they work for themselves, or are forced , or trafficked - and only let girls who work for themselves work in legal brothels ? It won't be perfect, but maybe it can reduce t…

Alas, lie detectors don't work.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#37
post #18

"Human trafficking" is a deceiving word. It is all too often used by people on the payroll of these organizations. It invokes imagery that doesn't anywhere near equate reality. I advise you to avoid puff pieces, find the truth in actual journals and save your compassion for things on a case-by-case basis. For those who aren't aware, there is another side to the story. There are many people who inflate these statistic…

Have you read the article? I agree that your comment is valid for a lot of articles on the topic. But what I've been reading is a valid analysis backed up with real investigation.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#38
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somaly_Mam is an example.

Of course someone would do that. People will do all kinds of shit for money, and it's especially disheartening when people fraudulently profit from a cause that involves fighting financial interests. But, you know, you'll find these fuckers everywhere. Anywhere where there's any kind of money, and quite a few places where there's none, you'll find frauds. Frauds prove nothing about the kind of people that they preten…

I am not saying they do. I was just providing an example to the question that was asked.

I am not as pessimistic as anon3_ but it seems good practice to examine the claims of companies and organization no matter if they are bad (Big Tobacco) or good (charities).

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#39
I think the whole thing is very difficult to deal with while it is all criminalized and taboo, in the dark and so shameful. "It" can mean sex in general, not just prostitution.

I heard recently that prostitution in "the west" has gone off a cliff over the last few generations. Recreational sex, including homosexuality and other stigmatized tastes became a more normal part of our culture and demand for prostitution declined. We stopped demonizing extramarital sex (or women, really) and the "problem" got a lot smaller. Thousands of years and thousands of cultures and god-knows how many gods worth of banning, ostracizing, preaching and tut-tutting about prostitution or promiscuity and the one thing that actually made a dent makes a difference is getting sluttier as a culture.

I think this is a metaphor for (or a specific instance of) a bigger principle.

an example

I was at university when grameen bank won a nobel prize for micro-lending. This was around the same time many governments and regulators (in a bunch of places) were trying to pressure out "predatory lending practices." Normal banks got out of the high risk, small loan business. They had a reputation to maintain and $400 loans to the broke and unemployed is not particularly lucrative anyway.

The market was left to "payday loan" shops who tended to be a lot shadier. Then the financial crisis happened and business boomed. If payday loan shops get banned (as some want), the market will almost certainly be reborn as loan sharking, a traditionally criminal trade. The deeper the taboos & bans, the worse it will get. The actual thing won't go away though. Taboos, laws or fiery political rhetoric can't make it go away. The harder these things squeeze, the worse it will get. Terry Pratchett would have been the person to describe but alas…

This is all quite ironic considering that a nobel prize was won by a bank basically doing payday loans, but with a totally different attitude. Ironic, but informative. Grameen bank has high interest rate and uses social pressure tactics to improve repayment rates, practices considered unethical in the larger financial world. Practices shared with others in this "sector" of small high risk loans to the people no "real" lender would bother with. The practices seem to be part and parcel of the market.

But, Grameen bank is not like loan sharks or payday loan shops at all, culturally. Their impact on their customers and their relationship with them (and society) is far more positive. So is their impact. They won the nobel peace prize.! The people working at grameen bank think and act completely different than the culture of the payday loan industry. Perception matters. It shapes the thing. The perception of the employees, society, etc. are all interlinked.

Criminalize an industry and it becomes more criminal (with violence, abuse and all the other things that go with criminality). Label someone a pariah and they will act like one.

Banning, or even stigmatizing payday loans doesn't make the industry go away, it just makes it uglier. Give it a nobel peace prize, and they become humanitarians. I'm simplifying, I know. But, I think this is a decent low resolution description of the concept.

It works the same way with drugs. Same with prostitution. The public perception of prostitutes, johns, madams and pimps. The taboos and laws, the disdain and ostracization. I think these things are a big part of why it is all so dark. Society tells us that it's dark. That might keep some people away, but if it doesn't… The johns walk into it knowing they are doing something bad and act like it. The pimps act like pimps with the characteristic dehumanization of prostitutes and the prostitutes, knowing that they are the lowest of the low.. they act like it. Suicide, depression, drug abuse and general self abuse and self hate.

Re: Going undercover as a sex worker

#40
post #16

The big elephant in the room that it is politically incorrect to discuss: human trafficking happens because of Muslims and because of Islam. Recognizing this fact will help fight it, for example by closing Europe to Muslims.

Am I the only one puzzled by this comment?

You shouldn't be. I'm a Muslim and I've dealt with numerous such individuals painting Muslims as backward and illiterate. Muslims are the scapegoat of this generation, as the Jews, Blacks were before them.

Their entire worldview is constructed of an us vs. them ideology rather than understanding that we're fundamentally the same regardless of our ethnicity/faiths/inclinations/etc.

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