Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#41

Post by craigyk » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:33 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #27

ryandrake wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, make sure there are no better offers out there. If you think your employees are going to leave after you train them, that's a problem you can solve.

Yes, but you have already invested money into them by hiring "green" (underproductive) workers. Someone else didn't have that burden so it's easy for them to pay a bit more to get the trained worker. So everyone is trying to get this trained worker "ready to hit the ground running".

for most positions training a "green" hire is probably like 20% new, transferrable skills (PLs, frameworks, etc.), and 80% highly specific, and less broadly applicable domain knowledge. That includes things things like figuring out your process, or even who to go to for what. Besides, the best employees probably are the ones that want to learn new things, so if you land the perfect candidate that doesn't need any "training" he might be more likely to leave since he's probably doing the same "boring" thing he was doing at his last job...

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#42

Post by jes5199 » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:35 AM UTC

GreenPlastic wrote: post #35

ryandrake wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did you have under "here are some great benefits" or "why it's awesome to work here"?

Leaned on the company's official materials for this. Employee focused culture where we work hard and play hard. XX on best companies to work for list. Fast growing company with great benefits, dogs allowed at work, etc.

OK, so apparently you decided not to try to entice people with the culture or benefits, either. Does the company have a recognizable name with a strong reputation? Because that's the only thing left that could convince someone to apply.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#43

Post by pyre » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:37 AM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #36

commandar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>After harassing HR at my company, I finally made a lateral move where my manager told me he thought at the time of hiring that they needed someone and they thought I might be able scrape by, but now they want me to find someone else just like me. I so relate to this. I was specifically poached from one department by another for a new position within my company. HR process requires internal transfers to apply for the…

A. you were enough to get the job done but wasn't the person to change the game. B. they knew that person was out there but they were failing to reach out to then

At the same time, it says something about the HR process if the hiring manager says that filling the position is critical and that this person would be adequate for the job (even if not game-changing), that HR will fight tooth-and-nail to not consider this person just because every checkbox is not precisely checked in exactly the right way.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#44

Post by memracom » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:37 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #10

th0ma5 wrote: post #2

I think this misinterprets something deliberately, and misses some things entirely. It mentions that wages have been stagnant as proof that it isn't that people aren't applying for jobs that have low pay, but only uses wage statistics as evidence for that, which doesn't really indicate one way or the other that such is the situation. I think the thing it really misses is the increased conceptualization of open positi…

Extreme pickiness. Every hiring manager is convinced that they must only hire A+++ players or their business is doomed. They'd rather a position go un-filled for 6 months than take a risk on someone simply hungry and enthusiastic. Companies are holding out for that unicorn employee (but, strangely enough, not offering unicorn salaries).

It is a sign of incompetent management that they demand only A+++ players. A good manager would hire only B players, then train and mentor them. A really GREAT manager would hire only C players that have the right attitude, and still end up with the best team in the company.

Before the MBA scourge hit the land, managers tended to hire the first B or C players that seemed to have the right aptitude and attitude. They would fire fast too, when they made mistakes. In the end they got long term productive employees and, I MUST point out, they did successfully build the modern world that we marvel at around us.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#45

Post by makeitsuckless » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:39 AM UTC

th0ma5 wrote: post #2

I think this misinterprets something deliberately, and misses some things entirely. It mentions that wages have been stagnant as proof that it isn't that people aren't applying for jobs that have low pay, but only uses wage statistics as evidence for that, which doesn't really indicate one way or the other that such is the situation. I think the thing it really misses is the increased conceptualization of open positi…

With my current employer, hiring the "most enthusiastic" people instead of the finding people with the necessary skills backfired hard.

We're now stuck with serious inefficiencies in the organisation and people that under local labor protection laws are hard to get rid of and replace holding key positions.

This may be easy to overcome in a larger organisation in which the underskilled enthusiasts are surrounded by more senior appropriately skilled coworkers, but in a smaller company it's a disaster.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#46

Post by pyre » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:45 AM UTC

smil wrote: post #5

th0ma5 wrote: post #2

I think this misinterprets something deliberately, and misses some things entirely. It mentions that wages have been stagnant as proof that it isn't that people aren't applying for jobs that have low pay, but only uses wage statistics as evidence for that, which doesn't really indicate one way or the other that such is the situation. I think the thing it really misses is the increased conceptualization of open positi…

As a recent graduate for whom it took a year and a half and a move to a different country to find another job, I think I've developed job searcher's PTSD. Applied to lots of jobs I was very excited about, only to get degraded during interviews or not hearing back at all. I wouldn't dream of asking for a lateral move as that might make my boss think I don't like my current job, and as they can fire my with 48 hrs noti…

> developed job searcher's PTSD

I currently (somewhat) interact with people that have rejected me for jobs in the past (within the local tech scene). I find it difficult, but such is life. It is easier to handle when you're not still looking for work and interacting with the person that rejected you for what (to you) was a petty reason.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#47

Post by memracom » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:48 AM UTC

GreenPlastic wrote: post #24

GreenPlastic wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted a senior iOS dev position to Indeed, LinkedIn, Glassdoor where the company is paying 25%(maybe 40% if you include RSUs) above market here (although we don't put comp in the job listing) and only got 3 applicants in a month.

Can't post the exact description but the jist of it was: Strong understanding of objective C and iOS SDK Swift experience a plus Passion for design / UX Proven track record of quality apps in app store That's literally all I had under qualifications.

Did you try to get all the Apple details out of your posting and replace them with Android ones?

What difference does it make whether they built an iOS app if they are a mobile app developer?

Also, why not look for a web app developer specializing in front end. Same skills, just a few minor technical details are different.

I think a lot of employers do not understand what the word "skill" actually means. Generally skills increase with years of experience and if you take someone at the right level and throw a new platform at them, they will spend a week on reading and tutorials and then dive into a prototype of the app they need to build.

After all, Google hires Apple and Microsoft engineers, then expects them to build stuff on the Google internal platform. And they DO!

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#48

Post by mozumder » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:49 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #13

mc32 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is more likely to happen if the employer can legally keep the worker after training, like say when the gov pays for your med school and gets you to commit x years at below market rates in exchange for paying your tuition (and training) otherwise the employee has little incentive to stay in the face of better offers given the added skills the prev employer paid for.

So, make sure there are no better offers out there. If you think your employees are going to leave after you train them, that's a problem you can solve.

The proper solution to this is to offer stock options that vest over several years to keep the employee, and to continually offer new set of options each year.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#49

Post by venomsnake » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:53 AM UTC

th0ma5 wrote: post #2

I think this misinterprets something deliberately, and misses some things entirely. It mentions that wages have been stagnant as proof that it isn't that people aren't applying for jobs that have low pay, but only uses wage statistics as evidence for that, which doesn't really indicate one way or the other that such is the situation. I think the thing it really misses is the increased conceptualization of open positi…

> I think this misinterprets something deliberately, and misses some things entirely.

Well it is Vox.com

The skills requirements are absurd. And for me they are a bit like a red flag - every job that has 3 pages of technical abbreviations is not worth applying for. Good jobs are always by personal contacts first.

Re: Why is it taking longer and longer to fill open jobs?

#50

Post by commandar » Sun, Jun 21, 2015, 6:54 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #43

gcb0 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A. you were enough to get the job done but wasn't the person to change the game. B. they knew that person was out there but they were failing to reach out to then

At the same time, it says something about the HR process if the hiring manager says that filling the position is critical and that this person would be adequate for the job (even if not game-changing), that HR will fight tooth-and-nail to not consider this person just because every checkbox is not precisely checked in exactly the right way.

Exactly this. HR wanted to hold out for a unicorn candidate when we're geographically in an area that makes finding such a candidate difficult and when the pay they were willing to offer wasn't going to attract a unicorn.

Meanwhile, we were having to spend several multiples the cost of an employee on outside consultants just to keep daily operations going and had been doing so for months.

It probably doesn't help that tech isnt our core competency and we work in an industry that's occupational license heavy, so HR is probably used to being highly selective, but there comes a point where not just cross training somebody that's already been vetted by the hiring manager --and actively resisting it-- when having the position unfilled is costing the company serious money just gets absurd.