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No Time to Be Nice at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#51

Post by mason55 »

comrade1 wrote: post #26

Aggressive behavior is the norm when working as a consultant. You have to know that it's not personal and that part of it is negotiation on the part of the client, part of it is anger on the part of the client, some of it is just due to poor personality, some of it due to your misunderstanding of the situation and culture. Most people are not fit to work in a high-stress, aggressive environment, but some of us are. A…

I've spent most of my career in a client facing role of one sort or another. One difference, at least from what I've seen, is that the incivility mentioned in the article is generally directed at the clients (behind closed doors of course). Especially once you grow past a size where losing a single client won't kill the company, you get the blame the client for everything that goes wrong (really just venting about the normal things that go wrong in any technology delivery).

I do think that, in that environment, one of the senior people has the responsibility to keep the client hate from becoming totally toxic and pervasive. Of course there are bad clients but even good clients can be demanding and you don't want to have a whole team of client facing people who hate all of their clients.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#52

Post by tedks »

rorykoehler wrote: post #17
tedks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is the way it is because this is the only way to survive within the framework of competitive capitalism. European attempts at cultural protectionism will fail as market pressures force them to adopt American customs and habits. This is just basic economics. American companies ruthlessly optimize for profit. Any attempt to optimize for anything else will take away from the potential for profit. In a…

I mostly agree however the American ideology and it's hunger for profit and domination is resulting in it cannibalizing itself. The trade agreements are a case in point as they are (from what I have read as I know their contents are still largely secret) by very definition protectionist. That said it is a very different type of protectionism to European protectionism. In Europe the protectionism was for social purpos…

This is a very wrong-headed view. There are a variety of other outcomes. For example, we could develop fusion power and perfect generalized manufacturing (3d printing), and have a massive die-off where only the top 1% of wealth holders survive as they disconnect themselves from labor classes and enjoy a post-scarcity economy where they trade influence by creating and playing ever-more-indirect markets. Or they could just de facto enslave labor classes rather than letting them die off. There are plenty of outcomes other than "capitalism undermines itself."

It's possible to have faith without being religious, and Marx is a great example.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#53

Post by tedks »

rorykoehler wrote: post #20
static_noise wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're telling it like it is. But does it have to be this way and does it have to stay this way? Once the competition is eliminated the wheels of capitalism start to lose ground. I'm not really sure if our cargo cult of "work work work" at all costs can be upkept for very long, especially when resources per capita start tightening.

The question is why? What is the purpose of "work work work" at all costs?

Why do you think there's a purpose? The real world is not a narrative. It doesn't have a beginning, middle, and end; there is no rising or falling action; there are no stunning third act reveals; there are no happily ever afters.

This is just the behavior that emerges (seemingly inevitably) from the ruleset of capitalism. It's like evolution -- the winners keep winning and the losers drop out. Eventually people adopt the winning strategies.

If you're asking on an individual level, the "why" is, from the lowest worker to the CEO, "if I don't do my job well I'll be fired, and my family will starve."

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#54

Post by lionhearted »

vacri wrote: post #48
lionhearted wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe should stay civilized, for the sake of its people. Yeah, what a shame those driven over-working puritans went and exported their Americanism to those civilized Europeans in 1944. Edit: I'll make the point more explicitly in response to the downvoting. (1) It's easy to decry efficiency and hard work in times of peace. But liberté, égalité, fraternité requires not having your society conquered by Hitler or Sta…

But liberté, égalité, fraternité requires not having your society conquered by Hitler or Stalin. ... France failed that test and would've been a Nazi puppet state if not liberated by a harder-fighting more determined force than the Germans. Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of the work to bring down Hitler came from Stalin. There's a lot of American Exceptionalism in your comment, and you're handwaving awa…

> ... the least of which is that the French were surprised by brand new tactics in WWII...

You're joking, right? The Nazis followed almost exactly the same attack path as World War I, violating Belgian neutrality... again. Oh, how surprising:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#German_forces_in_B...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#Similarity_to...

> Your comment ironically misses that the bulk of the work to bring down Hitler came from Stalin.

No, it doesn't. The United States has broadly been a defender of European culture and institutions for the last 80 years, both from Nazism and Sovietism, contributed immense amounts of funds to rebuild Europe after WWII, and has broadly been very respectful of European culture and cooperative with European countries even while having immense amounts of power. So yeah, Anti-Americanism is lame.

> But you should be exhorting folks to see the full picture

The context is someone whinging about American "puritanical drive to overwork" and "moral decrepitude" potentially messing up European culture -- a dumb statement of the kind of fashionable anti-Americanism that's so unfortunately prevalent today.

Again, America isn't perfect -- but Americans should be really proud of our achievements. If you want to call that American exceptionalism, so be it.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#55

Post by tedks »

4lejandrito wrote: post #14
tedks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States is the way it is because this is the only way to survive within the framework of competitive capitalism. European attempts at cultural protectionism will fail as market pressures force them to adopt American customs and habits. This is just basic economics. American companies ruthlessly optimize for profit. Any attempt to optimize for anything else will take away from the potential for profit. In a…

I think like you, but I am not based on specific evidence, just feelings. Could you suggest some literature that goes deeper into this topic?

With respect, I think that it's best for people to find these things on their own. The crimethought comes to you naturally at that point, without your being able to distinguish it as crimethink until it's too late.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#56

Post by wpietri »

hackuser wrote: post #43
littletimmy wrote: post #3

This is to be expected when the working environment gets as cut-throat as the American workplace has become. Blame it on inequality, blame it on the puritanical drive to overwork, blame it on the zeal to squeeze every last bit of profit. It's just one other symptom of how anyone who is not an oligarch in this society is meant as an expendable resource to be crushed by the ubermensch. My only hope is that the USA fail…

This is nothing unique to the United States (or to the 21st century). Just read a history book about another time and place. The workplace here and now is far kinder and gentler than almost any time or place in history (with the possible exception of contemporary, developed nations). In the good old days, children worked and in horrible jobs, such as coal mines; workers regularly lost limb and life; 7 day weeks and i…

It sounds to me like you're conflating the difficulty of the work (coal mining is hard, dangerous work) with the way people treat each other at work (like the shitty bosses in the article).

When I read books about other times and places, my main impression is that the work may have been harder, but that the people were much kinder to one another.

Given that I've worked at some places that were horrible and some that were very kind, I'd say that the dangers of the work are often temporarily necessary for economic reasons [1], but the way we treat each other is something purely chosen. Not always chosen explicitly, but a natural consequence of other choices we make in setting up the systems in which we work.

[1] E.g., coal mine deaths have fallen off pretty sharply as we have gotten more wealthy and more technologically advanced: http://www.msha.gov/stats/centurystats/coalstats.asp

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#57

Post by Edmond »

mason55 wrote: post #51
comrade1 wrote: post #26

Aggressive behavior is the norm when working as a consultant. You have to know that it's not personal and that part of it is negotiation on the part of the client, part of it is anger on the part of the client, some of it is just due to poor personality, some of it due to your misunderstanding of the situation and culture. Most people are not fit to work in a high-stress, aggressive environment, but some of us are. A…

I've spent most of my career in a client facing role of one sort or another. One difference, at least from what I've seen, is that the incivility mentioned in the article is generally directed at the clients (behind closed doors of course). Especially once you grow past a size where losing a single client won't kill the company, you get the blame the client for everything that goes wrong (really just venting about th…

Funny, I wrote a blog post a couple years ago on this very issue:

http://colabopad.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-10-commandments-of...

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#58

Post by s73v3r »

rowdybully wrote: post #22
encoderer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee happiness is absolutely relevant to P&L. Happy employees are more productive and have less turnover. Companies already know this. It becomes a game of "how little must we do" but it's far from the sweatshop imagery I saw while reading your comment. I grew up middle class in middle America and it's not just the SF tech scene I've made my career in; I grew up in a world of company picnics and "4 10s" work week…

Employee happiness is relevant to profit/loss, unless it isn't. Look at Walmart: Profits are fine, and employees are noticeably unhappy. Don't delude yourself with idealism. Capitalism is the way it is and it's not right or wrong any more than a beaver building a dam.

"Capitalism is the way it is and it's not right or wrong any more than a beaver building a dam."

I disagree. Capitalism being the way it is doesn't mean that should be the end goal of society.

Re: No Time to Be Nice at Work

#60

Post by s73v3r »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

From the article: But insensitivity or disrespect often sabotages support in crucial situations. Employees may fail to share important information and withhold efforts or resources. Sooner or later, uncivil people sabotage their success — or at least their potential. Payback may come immediately or when they least expect it, and it may be intentional or unconscious. It's a bit weird how the article paints this as a f…

"It's a bit weird how the article paints this as a failure of the uncivil person"

Because it is. If you're an asshole to me, why on earth would you expect that I want to help you? Or do anything more than the bare minimum?

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