Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here • Hacker News Board

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#71

Post by kamaal » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 11:52 AM UTC

alphapapa wrote: post #67

kamaal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Is there any time in history in which no one in the world suffered from hunger? Causes of mass hunger have changed. Population growth and increased life expectancy have been the problems. Add to this the mess created by our fellow humans by deforestation. Famines far more devastating and serious happen to day, claiming hundreds of thousands of lives. Visit countries like India, countries in Africa and you can see f…

> Causes of mass hunger have changed. Population growth and increased life expectancy have been the problems. Are those really the problems? That population growth and life expectancy has also helped result in increased crop yields through more workers and better technology. Since there is no global food shortage, I don't think those are the problems. > Add to this the mess created by our fellow humans by deforestati…

I'm from India, and the ill effects of over population are blatantly obvious to us in every day life. Trust me its not just food production, with scale every single thing that is needed to bring the food to your mouth has to increase. This includes fuel/energy spent or any other resource to make this happen, that in turn drives up emissions and so on... In fact everything that is needed to sustain that population has to increase at the same scale.

Its really not a simple situation the parameters involved might even be exponential in size.

>>is that we are killing the planet and need to reduce the population. And that's what I disagree with.

No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible for it. India indeed experiences a phase where we realize how unmanageable things can get when population increases.

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#72

Post by alphapapa » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 12:08 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #71

alphapapa wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Causes of mass hunger have changed. Population growth and increased life expectancy have been the problems. Are those really the problems? That population growth and life expectancy has also helped result in increased crop yields through more workers and better technology. Since there is no global food shortage, I don't think those are the problems. > Add to this the mess created by our fellow humans by deforestati…

I'm from India, and the ill effects of over population are blatantly obvious to us in every day life. Trust me its not just food production, with scale every single thing that is needed to bring the food to your mouth has to increase. This includes fuel/energy spent or any other resource to make this happen, that in turn drives up emissions and so on... In fact everything that is needed to sustain that population has…

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is the problem that the population is too high, or is the problem that infrastructure and economy has not developed along with the population?

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#73

Post by alphapapa » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 12:17 PM UTC

blumkvist wrote: post #65

alphapapa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so bad about it? Are you kidding me? Why don't you talk to some people in China about that, people whose children die and are denied the right to have more. Why don't you think about corrupt, evil governments that want to keep the population a manageable size so they can remain in power and continue exploiting people. I don't know where you are from, but where I come from, we value freedom and the right to se…

Nobody is denying you having a family. Or are you saying that having just 2 children is not having a family? Where I come from? I come from a country where gypsies have 6,7,8,9, more children, sucking welfare checks from the government. They occupy their spare time with laying around, marking retired, defenseless people for robberies and extortion, sending their children to developed countries to pickpocket. They vie…

In the example you give, uncontrolled population is not the problem. Social policies and cultural values are the problems. And I don't think limiting the number of children people can have is the right solution, not morally, ethically, or practically.

Now, who are you (not literally you) to say how many children I'm allowed to have? Who are you to control the size of my family? What business is it--or should it be--of yours? (Maybe we just have very different ideas about the proper roles of government.)

Anyway, if the problem is too many undeserving people on welfare, change the eligibility requirements for receiving welfare.

> So, please, come off your high horse and be a realist about the situation. I have yet to see evidence of humans, en masse, self-determine on impairment in the name of bigger picture.

You haven't? I think that, say, the Soviet Union would be an example of that, and communism in general. Although one could argue that that wasn't a case of self-determinism. It depends on the scale you're talking about. I think there are many examples of mobs of one scale or another being convinced to follow a certain path which had negative consequences. If the mob agrees with its leader, are its actions "self-determined"? Or if they think they're headed for success, are they "impairing" themselves? What matters, intent or results?

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#74

Post by alphapapa » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 12:21 PM UTC

blumkvist wrote: post #68

alphapapa wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you will arrive at some disturbing conclusions. Well, that certainly is ominous. Can you give any (anonymous) examples of such conclusions? Interesting that your comment got quickly downvoted, too. There are at least some people around here who really don't like those insinuations.

I have seen several websites often cited by a small group of people, which are very meticulously crafted in both the development and communication aspects. They provide excellent rhetoric on issues such as basic income, GMO, planet preserving initiatives and other such things of importance. Since the sites are not monetized at all, it greatly piqued my interest how such high level operations can exist and I ventured…

I had not heard of VTB before, but I guess your point is that it's Russian. That's interesting. What do you think they're trying to do? Weaken competing economies by convincing them to artificially hamper themselves?

BTW, have you published your research anywhere? Like, even on some anonymous blog, or a comment on a relevant one? Sounds like something that should be spread around beyond this little HN thread.

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#75

Post by kls » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 12:29 PM UTC

alphapapa wrote: post #14

vixen99 wrote: post #10

The hard data will be more objectively assessed if coming from someone other than Paul Ehrlich: In the 1970’s the world will undergo famines – hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death” and “[our children] will inherit a totally different world, a world in which the standards, politics, and economics of the 1960’s are dead.”

It's way worse--or funnier--than that. From Wikipedia: """On the first Earth Day in 1970, he warned that "[i]n ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish."[5] In a 1971 speech, he predicted that: "By the year 2000 the United Kingdom will be simply a small group of impoverished islands, inhabited by some 70 milli…

He has long tied his work on coevolution, on racial, gender and economic justice, and on nuclear winter with the issue of wildlife populations and species loss.

When I see the word economic justice in a piece about extinction, it is a key to me that the author may be more concerned with agendas over facts.

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#76

Post by blumkvist » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 12:39 PM UTC

alphapapa wrote: post #74

blumkvist wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen several websites often cited by a small group of people, which are very meticulously crafted in both the development and communication aspects. They provide excellent rhetoric on issues such as basic income, GMO, planet preserving initiatives and other such things of importance. Since the sites are not monetized at all, it greatly piqued my interest how such high level operations can exist and I ventured…

I had not heard of VTB before, but I guess your point is that it's Russian. That's interesting. What do you think they're trying to do? Weaken competing economies by convincing them to artificially hamper themselves? BTW, have you published your research anywhere? Like, even on some anonymous blog, or a comment on a relevant one? Sounds like something that should be spread around beyond this little HN thread.

VTB is KGB's bank. It's common knowledge in every post-soviet state. It is hard to speculate what their end-game might be. Anything from protecting Russia against foreign interests through offense, to world domination and everything in between. My guess would be in the "everything in between" realm. Former USSR borders are desirable to the Russian president, it seems. Adversaries, troubled by domestic problems are easier to fend off. I'm afraid, or I should rather say, happy that those endeavours are proving to be quite expensive and without much meaningful result on the horizon.

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#77

Post by a3n » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 1:00 PM UTC

codecamper wrote: post #5

People, cows, horses, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats. Corn, wheat, rice. What else do you need? I've been out driving across Europe for the past year. What strikes you about Europe is that almost every square meter of it is man controlled. The most wildlife they have are a few deer and wild boar. Even squirrels are rare.

> The most wildlife they have are a few deer and wild boar. Even squirrels are rare.

If true, that's a symptom.

Your very small list is not self-sustaining. Every living thing evolved in the context of every other living thing around it. While the current mix is not the only essential configuration, a large mix is essential for there to be anything from your list.

At the least: it took millions of years to get the all but uncountable list of life we have today. Why destroy it when it's not at all necessary to do so. We can never put it back, or create anything even close to it. The best we can do is to not fuck up.

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#78

Post by tincholio » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 2:07 PM UTC

codecamper wrote: post #44

tincholio wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should maybe drive to the Nordic countries...

Yes I want too, but I might be forced to eat Lutefisk!

Nah, it's unlikely you'll be forced to, and you might enjoy the sights in any case.

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#79

Post by blumkvist » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

alphapapa wrote: post #73

blumkvist wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is denying you having a family. Or are you saying that having just 2 children is not having a family? Where I come from? I come from a country where gypsies have 6,7,8,9, more children, sucking welfare checks from the government. They occupy their spare time with laying around, marking retired, defenseless people for robberies and extortion, sending their children to developed countries to pickpocket. They vie…

In the example you give, uncontrolled population is not the problem. Social policies and cultural values are the problems. And I don't think limiting the number of children people can have is the right solution, not morally, ethically, or practically. Now, who are you (not literally you) to say how many children I'm allowed to have? Who are you to control the size of my family? What business is it--or should it be--o…

Are you trying to say that the Bolshevik revolution is about people actually seeing further than their own noses?

Re: Stanford researcher declares that the sixth mass extinction is here

#80

Post by gus_massa » Sat, Jun 20, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

codecamper wrote: post #5

People, cows, horses, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats. Corn, wheat, rice. What else do you need? I've been out driving across Europe for the past year. What strikes you about Europe is that almost every square meter of it is man controlled. The most wildlife they have are a few deer and wild boar. Even squirrels are rare.

Let's try a little harder:

* bees for pollination

* cotton for the cloths

* chickens because they are cheaper to raise

* bananas because in some countries are the main "cereal"

* soy because it naturally fixates nitrogen

I'm not sure what to select to get all the vitamins. And remember to add lot of fungus and beetles to eat the scraps. And a few fishes for the dolphins.