Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#21

Post by strangecasts » Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 2:03 AM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #18

strangecasts wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that the people who are overlooked are somehow instantly able to tell why they've been passed up, and even then have the time and resources to go to court.

Proving that you were discriminated against is notoriously difficult. An exception to that is when the offending party is essentially admitting guilt in their effort to reform. Implementation of the Rooney Rule is an admission to guilt of failing to comply with EEO. It's meant, explicitly, to combat against racial discrimination. That's the nature behind the Rooney Rule. It asks the hiring managers/interviewers to re…

This doesn't really explain

> otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#22

Post by _pius » Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 5:57 AM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #16

_pius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I'd be racist for pointing that out, wouldn't I? Hey, you said it, not me.

So no further correction on my apparent misunderstanding of EEO and the malevolent racism that is the Rooney Rule? I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you can show how discriminating against hiring people based on their race or sex isn't discriminating against hiring people based on their race or sex - or how the Rooney Rule, which encourages discriminating in favor of hiring people based on their race or sex in this c…

So no further correction on my apparent misunderstanding of EEO and the malevolent racism that is the Rooney Rule?

None needed. I refuted you with the very first thing I said; the Rooney Rule isn't a hiring preference. Yet you've blithely continued to assert this and other falsehoods all across the thread.

In fact, you said: "To quickly sum up my thoughts on why it is essentially a quota in practice: If you do not hire more marginalized groups, you'll be accused of not honoring the Rooney Rule."

Well, that's just something you made up ... and it turns out to be completely false. There's actual data about how organizations have fared in implementing the policy. No need to rely on opinions from random White Pride concern trolls sea-lioning discussions on Hacker News.

Moreover, it's absurd to imply that an organization can't improve its process without exposing itself to liability. The Rooney Rule is a simple, effective way to ameliorate the selection bias that exists in many hiring processes: no more, no less. That's a far cry from your claim that implementing the Rooney Rule is some admission of liability. You literally don't know what you're talking about ... or are pretending not to.

There's no point in engaging with someone who's being willfully obtuse and that goes double for anonymous, pseudo-intellectual, race-baiting trolls.

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#23

Post by Nadya » Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 4:34 PM UTC

_pius wrote: post #22

Nadya wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no further correction on my apparent misunderstanding of EEO and the malevolent racism that is the Rooney Rule? I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you can show how discriminating against hiring people based on their race or sex isn't discriminating against hiring people based on their race or sex - or how the Rooney Rule, which encourages discriminating in favor of hiring people based on their race or sex in this c…

So no further correction on my apparent misunderstanding of EEO and the malevolent racism that is the Rooney Rule? None needed. I refuted you with the very first thing I said; the Rooney Rule isn't a hiring preference. Yet you've blithely continued to assert this and other falsehoods all across the thread. In fact, you said: "To quickly sum up my thoughts on why it is essentially a quota in practice: If you do not hi…

It forces at least one interview of a minority, (malevolent racism). That's quite literally the entire point. [0] This also discriminates against white coaches: no interview of them is required if the first interview is of a minority. Which is racist, by the way. Everyone seems to hate discrimination until it favors them.

>None needed. I refuted you with the very first thing I said; the Rooney Rule isn't a hiring preference.

It's purpose is implied to be - without explicitly stating it. But why believe me? Listen to Robert Gulliver instead.

>In the wake of no minority hirings to fill eight head coaching and seven general management vacancies following the conclusion of the 2012 NFL regular season, NFL Executive Vice president of Human Resources Robert Gulliver stated, "While there has been full compliance with the interview requirements of the Rooney Rule and we wish the new head coaches and general managers much success, the hiring results this year have been unexpected and reflect a disappointing lack of diversity."

Can you explain what is disappointing about full compliance of the rule? It sounds a lot like the implied quotas I mentioned before weren't met because not enough of the minority interviews were being hired after their Rooney-Required interview.

I'm also not the only person to see it for what it is: racist [1].

Many potential minority interviewees also turn down the interview because they know it is "just to comply with the Rooney Rule" and they have 0-chance of getting the job, as the team has already determined their next coach (who happens to be white: so they require a minority interview)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

[1] http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/06/apparent-roo...

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#24

Post by Nadya » Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 5:35 PM UTC

strangecasts wrote: post #21

Nadya wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proving that you were discriminated against is notoriously difficult. An exception to that is when the offending party is essentially admitting guilt in their effort to reform. Implementation of the Rooney Rule is an admission to guilt of failing to comply with EEO. It's meant, explicitly, to combat against racial discrimination. That's the nature behind the Rooney Rule. It asks the hiring managers/interviewers to re…

This doesn't really explain > otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

You either have a complaint for systematically being ignored or you don't. There isn't a middle ground. It's black and white: you were or you weren't. There are methods of getting these things investigated and handled [0]. In some cases, it is very easy to tell when you are being discriminated against [1].

If it cannot be proved - and investigations prove otherwise - that discrimination did not take place, the feeling of being discriminated against does not mean discrimination took place. Otherwise someone could pull the race/gender card each and every time they weren't hired, regardless if the reason was they were underqualified/not the right fit/blah blah blah.

[0] http://www.eeoc.gov/employees/howtofile.cfm

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/01/us/hooters-settles-suit-by...

Re: Facebook Starts Its ‘Rooney Rule’ to Increase Diversity in Tech

#25

Post by strangecasts » Fri, Jun 19, 2015, 8:03 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #24

strangecasts wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't really explain > otherwise they weren't being systematically ignored for consideration.

You either have a complaint for systematically being ignored or you don't. There isn't a middle ground. It's black and white: you were or you weren't. There are methods of getting these things investigated and handled [0]. In some cases, it is very easy to tell when you are being discriminated against [1]. If it cannot be proved - and investigations prove otherwise - that discrimination did not take place, the feelin…

The systematically of _pius' post is almost certainly used in the sense of "resulting from structural discrimination", which is a much larger and insidious beast because there's absolutely ingrained biases and entrenched policies that end up selecting away minorities in ways that can't be effectively shown in court.