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Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

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Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#51

Post by Mithaldu »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #45
convexfunction wrote: post #37

The name is silly, yes, but I do wonder if this kind of thing even accomplishes its stated goals. I've known a few programmers-who-are-women who find the laser-focus on Women Can Program Too to be annoying ("yes, I'm a woman, get over it"), insulting ("no shit, are you implying I couldn't?") or outright counterproductive ("it makes it sound like tech is some sexist hellhole that they have to beg women to even conside…

Women in programming should find it offensive because it changes how they are viewed. Generally, the more help a sub group is seen being given to fit into the larger group, the less the larger group thinks that the sub group belongs on their own merits. Add in incidents like Donglegate and people will begin to get a foundation to ground their biases which were originally unfounded.

Wow, i'm as far as possible from the modern internet feminist as you can get, but you just managed to create an amazingly accurate example of mansplaining.

This project is a dialogue between women. What anyone else thinks of it is irrelevant.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#52

Post by convexfunction »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #45
convexfunction wrote: post #37

The name is silly, yes, but I do wonder if this kind of thing even accomplishes its stated goals. I've known a few programmers-who-are-women who find the laser-focus on Women Can Program Too to be annoying ("yes, I'm a woman, get over it"), insulting ("no shit, are you implying I couldn't?") or outright counterproductive ("it makes it sound like tech is some sexist hellhole that they have to beg women to even conside…

Women in programming should find it offensive because it changes how they are viewed. Generally, the more help a sub group is seen being given to fit into the larger group, the less the larger group thinks that the sub group belongs on their own merits. Add in incidents like Donglegate and people will begin to get a foundation to ground their biases which were originally unfounded.

"Women in programming should..."

Hm. :\

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#53

Post by Lawtonfogle »

manux wrote: post #14
honest_joe wrote: post #5

This is getting more and more hilarous FFS. Will we have a special group for afroamerican women programmers ? Special group for mentally ill programmers ? Or what about vegan transgender programmers ? This kind of positive discrimination is really annoying and unfair. Using the right tool and right people should be free of all prejudices FFS

As much as I dislike positive discrimination, I view it as a necessary evil. In the specific case of women in CS/CE, I think it's fair to say that the lack of women is rather troubling, and has roots in prejudice. So yeah, who knows. Maybe recognizing the success of women in this field might help restore some balance and one day make this positive discrimination unecessary. Then we won't need any special terms and al…

The roots are in issues going far back into childhood. Issues such as gaming being a boy's past time, math being a boy's subject, spending time on the computer being more acceptable for a boy than a girl.

Trying to correct this at the college level or later is like trying to bend a paper clip back into a straight wire.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#54

Post by Lawtonfogle »

Mithaldu wrote: post #51
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in programming should find it offensive because it changes how they are viewed. Generally, the more help a sub group is seen being given to fit into the larger group, the less the larger group thinks that the sub group belongs on their own merits. Add in incidents like Donglegate and people will begin to get a foundation to ground their biases which were originally unfounded.

Wow, i'm as far as possible from the modern internet feminist as you can get, but you just managed to create an amazingly accurate example of mansplaining. This project is a dialogue between women. What anyone else thinks of it is irrelevant.

>What anyone else thinks of it is irrelevant.

I use to live not caring, having been told to not care what others thought about you. Then I realize just how much it does matter.

Also, I was talking about grandparents comment of "laser-focus on Women Can Program Too", not this project specifically.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#55

Post by dylanjermiah »

onion2k wrote: post #48
dylanjermiah wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why not direct your anger toward the employers who refuse to hire women, or pay them less, or ignore sexual harassment Do you have any data, which controls for the appropriate variables, to support that?

The fact that you're questioning whether or not sexism is really a thing is quite a big part of the problem. Trying talking to people. I find that pretty much every woman in the tech industry who I've spoken to has at least one example of how they feel they've been discriminated against at some point.

What you have just stated is a huge problem. To accept that there's a problem without even asking for data, or even worse dismissing someone for wanting to make a decision based on data is an unproductive method to solve a problem.

It's shooting in the dark.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#56

Post by Lawtonfogle »

convexfunction wrote: post #52
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women in programming should find it offensive because it changes how they are viewed. Generally, the more help a sub group is seen being given to fit into the larger group, the less the larger group thinks that the sub group belongs on their own merits. Add in incidents like Donglegate and people will begin to get a foundation to ground their biases which were originally unfounded.

"Women in programming should..." Hm. :\

Which is to say "Based on the factors that I think would make some stance insulting/offensive to some group, this insert topic fits enough of those standards for the group women in programming that I expect them to view it as offensive," (using the usage of expect meaning "I foresee", not "I demand").

Phrase policing tends to be a tactic to distract being that it is easy to find phrases in English that can be presented to mean something different.

Take the "I expected the car to be washed." It means something different when talking about visiting someone who loves washing their car and does so most every sunny day vs. buying a car and finding it dirty. It can easily be made to sound demanding even when there was no such intention.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#57

Post by tjr »

onion2k wrote: post #48
dylanjermiah wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>why not direct your anger toward the employers who refuse to hire women, or pay them less, or ignore sexual harassment Do you have any data, which controls for the appropriate variables, to support that?

The fact that you're questioning whether or not sexism is really a thing is quite a big part of the problem. Trying talking to people. I find that pretty much every woman in the tech industry who I've spoken to has at least one example of how they feel they've been discriminated against at some point.

Trying talking to people.

That's what is being done right here, right now.

I find that pretty much every woman in the tech industry who I've spoken to has at least one example of how they feel they've been discriminated against at some point.

Then sharing some concrete examples should be easy!

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#58

Post by honest_joe »

manux wrote: post #14
honest_joe wrote: post #5

This is getting more and more hilarous FFS. Will we have a special group for afroamerican women programmers ? Special group for mentally ill programmers ? Or what about vegan transgender programmers ? This kind of positive discrimination is really annoying and unfair. Using the right tool and right people should be free of all prejudices FFS

As much as I dislike positive discrimination, I view it as a necessary evil. In the specific case of women in CS/CE, I think it's fair to say that the lack of women is rather troubling, and has roots in prejudice. So yeah, who knows. Maybe recognizing the success of women in this field might help restore some balance and one day make this positive discrimination unecessary. Then we won't need any special terms and al…

I call it BS. Women are mostly emotion based creatures. They are simply interested in other areas than men. They love the experience and the emotion from things..hence why they want to be translators, teachers and they study other kind of stuff we consider mostly useless.

It's like saying NBA is occupied mostly by tall people and that's troubling because short people are in disadvantage. We should try to stimulate the short people so they start playing basketball competitively.

Bullshit.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#59

Post by Lawtonfogle »

onion2k wrote: post #34
agounaris wrote: post #15

Thats the most sexist word ever... kidogrammers, asianogrammers and bullshit ... get a life and stop seeing a gender, a race or anything else to your colleague and just expect from him/her being polite and positive. When will we get rid of this nonsense?

When will we get rid of this nonsense? As soon as people stop using it as an excuse to abuse, berate, degrade and discriminate against people. These words, and the intent behind them, are not the problem - they are a reaction to the problem. Rather than get annoyed with people who invent words like 'wogrammers', why not direct your anger toward the employers who refuse to hire women, or pay them less, or ignore sexua…

You aren't going deep enough. What are the roots of those problems?

Did the manager have a bias against women because they feel women are worse workers? What caused that bias and how can it be fixed (sadly, in some cases it can only be fixed in the younger generations... or maybe this is a bias I have against older individuals... and why would I have that).

Did the manager have a bias against women because a previous project was massively delayed when a woman took maternity leave and the temp replacement took so much onboarding work that they might have been better being a person down? How about changing culture so a later delivery cue to someone taking medical leave is 100% as acceptable as an earlier delivery (including the same end of year bonuses).

Did the manager have a bias against women because some of their male employees fear an instance similar to Donglegate and as such would be far less open to forming the same sort of comradeship that enables the team to run smoothly? What caused the employees to feel this way?

Did the manager have a bias against women because they are male and they fear for their own professional safety when conducting private one on one meetings with the opposite set? Why do they fear such and can that fear be removed.

Re: Meet the wogrammers – women in engineering

#60

Post by convexfunction »

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #56
convexfunction wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Women in programming should..." Hm. :\

Which is to say "Based on the factors that I think would make some stance insulting/offensive to some group, this insert topic fits enough of those standards for the group women in programming that I expect them to view it as offensive," (using the usage of expect meaning "I foresee", not "I demand"). Phrase policing tends to be a tactic to distract being that it is easy to find phrases in English that can be present…

Eh, sorry. I do basically agree with you.
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