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Stripe Is the New PayPal

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261–270 of 329 posts

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason Visa/MC so rigorously enforces those ratios has nothing to do with immediate financial danger from the reversals themselves. They bear no actual risk there. Visa/MC work with an ever-changing mix of tens of millions of merchants that they never have direct contact with. There's a long chain of banks, ISOs, MSPs and other resellers between the card networks and the businesses that accept cards, yet they sti…

And unfortunately it is encouraging poor behavior from customers to be able to get things for free. I think everyone can agree that maybe with a 20% chargeback rate, there is something wrong with the business but 1-2% seems possible for a legitimate business. As a credit card user, I don't think it is their job to dictate which businesses are worthy of operating or not. As long as I get my money back when I do a char…

> 1-2% seems possible for a legitimate business

Somehow, all the businesses that currently exist and accept credit cards are doing so without more than 1-2% chargeback rates. That's a pretty good indicator that this isn't a problematic level to set the bar at. It's really much higher than you seem to think. 1 in 50 people walking into a store shouldn't have some payment problem so serious they have to go to their bank instead of the store to resolve it. Neither should online sellers be generating chargebacks every single day; 50 sales a day is a very small business. If 2% were an acceptable level, Wal-Mart would be allowed to generate 300,000 chargebacks every day, millions per year. 300,000 people who have a problem with charges on their credit card per day at a single retailer would clearly not be good for Visa or MasterCard's brands.

> As a credit card user, I don't think it is their job to dictate which businesses are worthy of operating or not.

As a credit card user, don't you prefer that you don't have to call your bank and dispute a transaction on a regular basis? It's this bar that ensures bad actors aren't there to take your card in the first place, that the stores you shop at don't engage in shady practices resulting in charging you more than you expected to pay, that they have reasonable return/refund policies, and that they have good and prompt support so they can resolve issues with you directly without you going through a third-party mediator.

Ensuring low chareback rates ensures high customer satisfaction rates across millions of businesses. If a business wants to operate despite large numbers of dissatisfied customers, they're free to do so. They can take cash, or checks, or debit your bank account. They just won't be allowed to take Visa or MasterCard cards. That's not a right.

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice spread too. They take a 2.9% fee for charging a debit/check card, but pay Visa as little as 0.05% + $0.21.

Nice? 2.9% sounds horrible. Why do we pay that much again?

I think the comment meant it was a nice spread for Stripe. It then pointed out the delta.

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#263
post #115

Stripe CEO here. I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm taking a look at what happened here. OP (disappointeddev), if you could drop me an email, that'd be great: patrick@stripe.com.

[deleted]

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is confusing, so apologies if I'm misreading. Your policies are irrelevant if you're getting chargebacks despite them. Stripe was not lying: they are mandated by Visa/MC and whatever processors they work with to keep their chargeback ratio lower than that. If large customers like you can't keep your ratio below ~1%, then they have to drop you to preserve their own business. Having a high chargeback rate is itsel…

I have trouble believing even a 2% chargeback rate would endanger Visa/MC. It seems like they hardly spend any time investigating chargebacks and most disputes seem to be won by the buyer by default unless they have a habit of filing chargebacks.

2% is very high. MC/Visa require you to keep your chargeback rate under 1%. If you go above it you'll get add to their excessive chargeback program which if you don't get out after after certain amount of time, you'll be fined up to $50k a month(volume dependent) . Go above 3%, you get yourself in audit program and risk losing your merchant account.

We do ecom subscription and ours is 0.01% in comparison.

If you blame the customer, you should better qualify your customers. There are services that can tell you if the customer has committed friendly fraud(fraudulent chargebacks). Burden is on the merchant to prevent chargebacks.

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their engineering support is incredible, and their API is well-documented and so easy to integrate. It is hard to believe that they can't spend a little more time focusing on customer support, especially as they continue to add new features and countries the problem is only going to increase. At least adding a public-facing ticketing system would pull some pressure off. I don't necessarily mind waiting for support, i…

I think one thing that is not well understood is that Stripe has a "Freemium" model. Prior to Stripe nearly all other payment processors required a minimum monthly fee. Stripe's lack of any minimum monthly fee is something that makes it very attractive and undoubtedly helped partly fuel their rapid growth. It's a great example of how you can leverage VC funding to build a business. Having said that it must mean a sta…

That developer doing just 1 or 3 transactions a month at $100 each still feels as strongly about getting an issue resolved as someone doing $1 million or $10 million a month.

Commercially, of course a big customer is more valuable in isolation than a little customer, and while it's unfortunate if you're the little guy, it's understandable that a business might prioritise supporting its larger customers first.

But even if a little customer is only running a microbusiness on the side -- and as we learned during the EU VAT discussions a few months ago, there are very many such businesses on-line -- it's still going to be a big problem for them if a payment service kicks them off for a 1% chargeback rate. That literally means a single chargeback within several years in the example given, and given the randomness of the chargeback process at the best of times, that could easily result from an accident and not be corrected because the customer's bank doesn't handle it well.

Similarly, the little business might only be doing a few thousand a year in revenues, but if a service is failing to collect 10-20% of their transactions every month for unspecified reasons (and, for subscription business models, probably terminating the entire subscription in practice as a result) then that's still a huge level of attrition as a proportion of their modest income.

I suspect the danger for Stripe lies not in losing the odd small customer, or even necessarily in the cumulative damage if they lose a few small customers the same way before fixing a problem, but in the damage to their reputation that any individual case may cause even if the customer does not go posting about it on HN, Twitter, #stripe, etc.

For example, today I only have one business that is taking money on-line via this kind of payment service, and it's a relatively small one. Losing us as a customer wouldn't exactly show up as a footnote in the payment service's next financial statement.

On the other hand, I have another business that develops systems for clients who may need payment processing in some cases, and often a client will follow your lead if you recommend a service for something and they don't know any better or have other preferences. Similarly, I know a lot of other local business people through work and socially, and through a chance discussion over a drink I once helped a business several orders of magnitude larger to find and ultimately switch to a different payment service.

I'm always happy to recognise good service and positive experiences. Usually everybody involved wins from such discussions, and I imagine that word-of-mouth advocacy is quite a big factor in the early growth of many on-line services. The downside is that presumably someone in a similar position who hadn't enjoyed the same positive outcomes that I have seen would not have made those same recommendations, and that would have cost one payment service a very noticeable amount of revenue in cases like the one I mentioned above.

So I guess it's inherently a tricky thing to balance support and management overheads between larger and smaller customers if you're in the kind of business where your main target audience is knowledgeable and probably technical people. Big customers generate revenues right now, but small customers might not only become big customers themselves but also refer other potential customers, and you probably have a lot more small customers who can make or break your reputation than large ones who don't really care about your reputation anyway.

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to live in the world where only 7 transaction can occur a second.

Nope. At least soon that won't be the case. (soon as in a few months maybe a year) Check out the lightning network: http://techcrunch.com/2015/06/13/down-the-blockchain-rabbit-... "In theory, this distributed micropayment network–the Lightning Network–could scale Bitcoin transactions up to “billions of transactions per day” across the planet, with minimal use of the blockchain and minimal fees (zero, for direct chann…

Lightning Network has a number of problems as the solution for Bitcoin's problems:

2. It's a sidechain - that is to say, an altcoin that claims a link to Bitcoin. The forces that would cause mutually-distrusting individual humans to maintain the linkage is unclear.

1. Like other sidechains, but unlike altcoins, it ... doesn't exist. This is a subtle point, but I think it might be an important one.

(not that I am any fan of altcoins either. But basically, the Bitcoin protocol as it stands was never designed with scaling in mind.)

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#268
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other payment processors that do not use a 'freemium' model charge less for their processing fees (and varying rates across cards). The reason it seems freemium for Stripe and other competitors is that they charge higher processing fees for the convenience than other traditional processors do.

It's a nice spread too. They take a 2.9% fee for charging a debit/check card, but pay Visa as little as 0.05% + $0.21.

How nice that spread is does depend dramatically on the size of the transaction, though.

I'm guessing a service like Stripe has plenty of customers in B2C markets, where selling something for $10 is hardly unusual. At that price, they are only making a few cents on the transaction in revenues (not profits).

Obviously on a $100 transaction the figures work out much better for them.

I think Stripe also still charge the same rate for all card types, but behind the scenes they are probably paying significantly higher rates to some card networks than others.

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#269
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to be negative, but the stripe channel is very active. Why aren't you assigning someone to give 100% attention to this concentrated collection of YOUR users?

Oh, we do -- we've hired a few people to help users in #stripe on a full-time basis.

Again, not to be negative, but a complaint about Stripe with 500 up votes and hitting the front page, after having full-time employees in the Stripe channel?

Something is not going well with the CX (Customer Experience) if we're seeing this many complaints in the comments section.

Re: Stripe Is the New PayPal

#270

-- PSA regarding Credit Card Validation -- Last year I was testing Stripe integration. I tried using my own credit card with a fake name. Surprise, it went through. I emailed Stripe support. After half a dozen emails discussing CC authorization I learned that Stripe does not and can not validate Name & Address on credit card. Stripe told me that Credit Card companies do not disclose this data to Payment Processors li…

People are confused how these checks work. Banks do not enforce AVS. On the auth, you'll get back status codes whether there was mismatch in the information. Its up to merchant to decide whether or not to put it into the settlement batch so the money is transfer. Regardless, the authorization went through and funds are on hold.
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