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My Position On The Disney Layoffs

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Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#101
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is a job flipping burgers worth 30k? by running up the cost of unskilled labor pressure is put upon those who need skilled labor and many of those jobs can go overseas

Why? Because we (as in "we the people") decide it is so? Remember, the government, and all its laws, derives its power from us, not the other way 'round.

... but "we" haven't given government the power to micromanage every aspect of our lives.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#102
post #37

"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1b Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." It's surprising to me that Disney was able to replace its local workforce by foreigners via H-1b visas, since I always thought that companies making use of this type of visa were required to prove that they would not be able to find an employee with the required qualifications in th…

I believe the author is simply mistaken that H1-Bs are the problem. H1-Bs are limited enough that they can't be responsible for the volume of outsourcing. They also carry salary parity requirements, and while H1-B holders rarely actually make market salary, the savings still aren't enough to prompt a wave of outsourcing. There was a problem at one time with H1-Bs, but the H1-B lottery has become so competitive that i…

Just want to share my perspective as an Indian who was in US for 6 years until I came back to India a couple of months back. I am not sure why you think companies can bring folks from other countries (India in your example) at a meagre salary of $25K per year and that too in a managerial capacity. You are directly questioning the work that folks at USCIS do. I was in US on L1B initially, which is different from L1A that you are referring to, and then converted to H1B and I believe I was paid a fair market wage all along. I know there could be exceptions but don't think this can happen at a scale at which you are projecting. Also, I agree that the definition of management can be stretched but don't think the wage parity can escape the authorities.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#103
post #37

"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1b Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." It's surprising to me that Disney was able to replace its local workforce by foreigners via H-1b visas, since I always thought that companies making use of this type of visa were required to prove that they would not be able to find an employee with the required qualifications in th…

I believe the author is simply mistaken that H1-Bs are the problem. H1-Bs are limited enough that they can't be responsible for the volume of outsourcing. They also carry salary parity requirements, and while H1-B holders rarely actually make market salary, the savings still aren't enough to prompt a wave of outsourcing. There was a problem at one time with H1-Bs, but the H1-B lottery has become so competitive that i…

>They also carry salary parity requirements

This is easily gamed by creating "new" positions with trivially different responsibilities than the old positions you want to get rid of. Now you don't have an established salary history to work with. That's on top of having H1B's by the shorthairs because its so difficult for them to switch jobs, thus the 60+ workweek the domestic workers rightfully balked at is achievable by cost-cutting managers.

That's on top of what Disney did, which was just outsource an entire department to a provider, which side-steps all the paltry protections in the H1B program.

>The majority of H1-B recipients these days are foreign nationals who attended American universities, often with masters degrees. Those are the kinds of foreign nationals we want participating in the US economy.

Frankly, in IT/CS a lot of higher degrees are little more than adult daycare. If you can't figure out how to code via a 4 year degree then another 2 ain't helping you. Even if Disney got MS holders because their workforce needed MS's for some weird reason, which sounds highly questionable to me, some nerds straight out of school aren't going to do a good job running operations with zero professional experience and 10 hours of training from the previous guy. Its clear they did this not for better outcomes but for cost savings.

Its likely an H1B has an undergrad degree for a foreign university that's little more than a diploma mill anyway.

Its hilarious that we bemoan the lack of people, especially women, in STEM, when many STEM jobs can be eliminated with the blessing of the federal government via whats essentially bought and paid-for legislation by large companies looking to cut IT costs. No wonder law school enrollments and finance higher ed degrees have been so high. The smart guys, and women in general apparently, know tech is a ripoff precisely because of shit like H1B's stealing their jobs. Lets stop excusing the H1B program. Its designed to take American jobs from Americans and everyone knows it.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#104
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, none of which says anything about the 70 new jobs and 30,000 jobs total added in the US being non-citizens. New jobs in the US != NOT H1B workers. Skillfully avoiding the topic, but I guess that's why he has that job. And I say this as a non-citizen working in the US.

As reported in the original NYT article, the 70 new Disney IT jobs are actual Disney employees, not the controversial outsourced contractors (though the new Disney employees may or may not include H1-B workers). The eliminated Disney IT jobs were outsourced to a contracting shop. The contracting shop hired H1-B workers to perform the outsourced work. The net overall effect appears to be that H1B workers replaced Disn…

Yes; in a way it's laundering by placing a 3rd party in between to achieve the outcome, but the contracting shop could not complete or offer such savings without leveraging the H1-B system. Remember you can't replace employees with contractors, and outsourcing is suppose to be taking your service and transitioning it to specialized experts, so leveraging outsourcing to do layoffs, to cheap staff new to the field and training them is walking a line. Also instead of repositioning your staff into the new 70+ positions, forcing them to leave then re-submit is poor leadership, and it forced them to renegotiate new lower salaries.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#105
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is a job flipping burgers worth 30k? by running up the cost of unskilled labor pressure is put upon those who need skilled labor and many of those jobs can go overseas

Why? Because we (as in "we the people") decide it is so? Remember, the government, and all its laws, derives its power from us, not the other way 'round.

"We the people" decide that it's not worth 30k by refusing to pay $20 for a big mac.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#106
post #30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We do exist in a global economy and you must therefore compete globally. I completely agree, but that's not what the H1-B visa program does. It allows companies to lock in immigrant workers at a lower rate and little to no job mobility. From a companies standpoint it is obviously what they want - pay less, and job lock in! The fix for the H1-B is true immigration reform. We need to make it easy for people to come t…

Why do we need to make it easy for people to come take our jobs? Why would we do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qty1xqvQBrA

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#107
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protectionism doesn't work. There is wide consensus among economists on comparative advantage [1]. Healthy, non-protectionist immigration policies have been proposed to have similar effects as free trade [2,3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage [2] http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf [3] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904434771045775512...

Any immigration policy short of opening the borders completely is "protectionist". Just waving the word "protectionism" around is a non-statement that doesn't say anything about what may or may not be wrong wit the current policy.

> Any immigration policy short of opening the borders completely is "protectionist".

How so? The idea of comparative advantage is that one country has a market, another, the means to provide for that market and you facilitate this 'trade'. India, China, pretty much most countries have plenty of top notch talent that cannot be satiated by opportunities within their own countries. These are not necessarily geniuses, but most high-performing highly skilled workers qualify. The satisfaction that these highly talented folks seek is often provided only in the US. For a moment, set aside the notion that people want to work in the US for greenbacks. This is only partially true, in my experience. Most friends and colleagues I know want to immigrate because their jobs are higher quality, as is the work culture, etc.

US provides the (job) market for top talent, China, India, Europe, etc. supply the talent.

Protectionism in this situation is just the act of putting ill-conceived roadblocks in this 'trade'. No one is asking for open borders, just a fair system where this 'trade' can be carried on smoothly.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#108
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protectionism doesn't work. There is wide consensus among economists on comparative advantage [1]. Healthy, non-protectionist immigration policies have been proposed to have similar effects as free trade [2,3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage [2] http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf [3] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904434771045775512...

Any immigration policy short of opening the borders completely is "protectionist". Just waving the word "protectionism" around is a non-statement that doesn't say anything about what may or may not be wrong wit the current policy.

> Any immigration policy short of opening the borders completely is "protectionist".

How so? The idea of comparative advantage is that one country has a market, another, the means to provide for that market and you facilitate this 'trade'. India, China, pretty much most countries have plenty of top notch talent that cannot be satiated by opportunities within their own countries. These are not necessarily geniuses, but most high-performing highly skilled workers qualify. The satisfaction that these highly talented folks seek is often provided only in the US. For a moment, set aside the notion that people want to work in the US for greenbacks. This is only partially true, in my experience. Most friends and colleagues I know want to immigrate because their jobs are higher quality, as is the work culture, etc.

US provides the (job) market for top talent, China, India, Europe, etc. supply the talent.

Protectionism in this situation is just the act of putting ill-conceived roadblocks in this 'trade'. No one is asking for open borders, just a fair system where this 'trade' can be carried on smoothly.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#109

"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1b Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." It's surprising to me that Disney was able to replace its local workforce by foreigners via H-1b visas, since I always thought that companies making use of this type of visa were required to prove that they would not be able to find an employee with the required qualifications in th…

What you are missing is that they must be paid the prevailing wage for the occupation, not the prevailing wage for the company. This is an important distinction.

Many large and profitable companies find themselves in the position of systematically paying high wages for objectively mediocre employees, a situation that accreted over time. They may not have always been overpaid, just that over time their value and performance has become decoupled from their wages. If you've ever worked at old behemoth companies, they often have entire divisions full of employees that could be accurately described this way but the business is profitable enough overall to absorb paying large groups of people that do not produce much value. This is a management failure to the extent they allowed value and talent to become decoupled from wages over time.

So how does a company correct this so that pay more accurately reflects talent and value created? Asking employees to take a pay cut to reflect their market value is not feasible, particularly if the company is profitable. In these cases, paying the "prevailing wage" to H1b employees to do the same job on a wholesale basis is actually cheaper than the status quo and much easier than suddenly requiring existing employees to have pay that reflects their market value when the entire business unit is systematically overpaying for value.

Outsourcing of business units is often about clearing out deadwood divisions where few people have performed to their wage in ages. It is an unfortunate and real problem. It isn't just overseas either, I've seen this done entirely within the US many times. There is no easy way to re-couple wages and performance for a big organization when they have been allowed to drift apart for years so most companies opt for a complete reboot.

Re: My Position On The Disney Layoffs

#110

Yet another xenophobic article. What if disney hired an American contractor that replaced their old infrastructure with new age docker/cloud/YC-funded stack and were able to save costs by cutting 250 positions replacing them with 50 pure blooded americans (oh wait and another 10 pround "undocumented" immigrants). The reality is that this person is on the wrong side of efficiency argument. And he is just blaming his i…

You're misunderstanding what people are upset about. The whole situation feels unfair and heartless. The employees had been doing a good job and they weren't given the option to take a pay cut to keep there jobs, instead they were given the option to quit or to work for a few months training their replacement. That kind of situation sounds horrible.

The people who are replacing them can't move around as freely in the job market as normal individuals, so they're willing to work for less than someone who didn't have that restriction. And the program they're using to come over here wasn't established to replace jobs, so it being used like this seems unfair.

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